Dammit

[Boron]

Arryn said:
I play HoI with 1.06c and CORE 0.84. CORE makes the game much more realistic and challenging, yet it still falls far short of being truly challenging in SP. Unlike Dom 2.

sorry but how can you say dom 2 is challenging in SP ? dominions 2 really shines in MP

but in sp it is like HoI and most other strategy games . perhaps slightly better but in sp if you chose special nations : ryleh , ermor , pan cw there is no challenge at all .
almost the same with abysia / mictlan when you use blood heavy .
after earlygame no challenge
to a slightly lesser extent true with all the magically extreme flexible nations like pythium / arco .
if you survive until midgame no challenge too just clamhoard + make lots of uberscs , battlemages with strong troops etc.


dominions 2 is only challenging in sp if you take first special houserules and second take the nation who does worst under this special houserules .
furthermore you have to forbid yourself the use of scs.


the only way i see is as tauren suggested to let Users mod ai scripts . this way i could perhaps make the ai use my own battlescripts for lategame if it is possible then everybody can make 1-2 scripts for his favourite nation(s).
then everybody sends them to illwinter or better somebody with lots of patience + insight ( like zen + gandalf ) and he choses 4-5 scripts for each nation which he thinks are extremely good .
then the ai always choses random one of these scripts and would probably play really good .

Arryn said:


IMO, Paradox is very good at conceptualizing / designing games, but not very good at implementing them. Their biggest shortcoming is a marked lack of usability testing, which would quickly reveal the numerous UI flaws in their games. They also desperately need someone with experience in AI (preferably neural-net AI). Of course, people with experience in AI are in severely short supply in the entire gaming industry. It's just that the games that most need good AI (ie: strategy games) are often the ones with the worst AIs. Probably has something to do with the genre's popularity and typical budgets.

strategy games are with shooters the most popular genre .

blizzard with starcraft or microsoft with age of empires 2 had surely a huge budget .
especially the starcraft ai was not bad .
but it is easy with only about 25 units in total . if you have this in mind the ai was VERY poor once you had mp experience .

in a game with a friend we 2 won always against 6 ais on the hunters .

alpha zentauri has imo a quite good ai though .
in magic the gathering the ai used their decks quite well too given that it is almost as complex as dominions ( about 800 different cards i think with both extensions ).
these 2 games are positive examples for a quite good ai .
a third one is heroes of might and magic 1-3 .

Arryn said:

SE4 is TB. So is GalCiv. You should try both.

The Last RT grand strategy game I played (prior to EU/EU2/HoI/Vicky) was Star Wars Rebellion. A game that should have been TB. RT brought nothing good to the game. Especially since the morons who made the game didn't allow for orders while the game was paused.

what is your impression of starcraft ?
i think it is still the best true RTS game .

i have star wars rebellion myself but with pause like the paradox games it is basically TB . star wars rebellion was not as good as master of orion and the star wars bonus was not enough to compensate though i love starwars .

i was interested in trying Galactic civs but i heard that it is not deep and too simple and according to reviews / screenshots i believed it .

i will give space empires probably a closer look though

[Boron]

The_Tauren13 said:
[but what is the problem with panther's suggestion; making it morale based. thus, a commander with 30 morale and hardly any damage/fatigue, probably an SC, will stick around, but a commander with 10 morale and 60 fatigue will run off, probably a mage.

the problem is with panthers suggestion mages rout easier .

as it is if you take some strong troops with your mages they almost NEVER rout ( until they fail a morale check in melee ) .

with your suggestion the mages have to do a moralecheck everytime an army routs so much more moralechecks and they will rout more often .


in the current system leaders can rout too if they are severely wounded . so it is already like your suggestion with the only exeption that once there is no army present + 1 leader dies all expect berserk + immortal leaders rout automatically .



the current system is imo really great .
your suggestions would imo be not improvements but worsenings
as it is it is very very balanced .

with your suggestion troops would become totally unimportant and scs would become even stronger .

[The_Tauren13]

Boron said:
especially the starcraft ai was not bad .
but it is easy with only about 25 units in total . if you have this in mind the ai was VERY poor once you had mp experience .

in a game with a friend we 2 won always against 6 ais on the hunters .

lemme guess... BGH, not the real hunters. what do you expect? of course the AI sucks on lame *** money maps; that was not the way the game was intended to be played. you could never win a 2v6 on any REAL map ( unless you exploit the problem with them chasing you all over the place with their workers at the beginning if you attack them, but that is no better than cheating ).

i hate how the starcraft community does nothing but play those [censored] up maps with endless money [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] really screws up the game and now it isnt fun to play any more

[Boron]

The_Tauren13 said:

lemme guess... BGH, not the real hunters. what do you expect? of course the AI sucks on lame *** money maps; that was not the way the game was intended to be played. you could never win a 2v6 on any REAL map ( unless you exploit the problem with them chasing you all over the place with their workers at the beginning if you attack them, but that is no better than cheating ).

i hate how the starcraft community does nothing but play those [censored] up maps with endless money [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] really screws up the game and now it isnt fun to play any more

no it was NORMAL hunters .
on bgh i could win myself against 4-5 ais easy .

we 2 vs the 6 ais on normal hunters was challenging but not too hard .

we both played protos , builded 10-20 photon cannons on the entry to our base + 10-20 berserks .
this holded off the ai long enough .
then lots of scouts + some corsairs and we took one ai after the other out .

only the initial rush is a problem and can fail if you are very unlucky . but against 6 random ais we won most of our games .


one of my friends got internet later then me . he developed a special berserkerrush where he could win against 7 zerg ais alone .

[Kristoffer O]

if you take with you just a few archers than it is your fault and simply stupid .

It's not stupid unless you know how the system works.

There is nothing such thing as common sense in computer programmed actions, only what devs consider rational solutions and responses to given situations. Responses have to be based on anticipated results and problems as well as simplicity.

The current system does not reflect common sense in every situation. It is a rule that is be based on common sense and general utilability (is this an english word at all?).

If you understand the premises the rule is (hopefully) acceptable.

Adjustments could be done, but it would risk making the system opaque and more unintuitive. The current system gives the player control if s/he is aware of how the rules work.

[Cainehill]

The_Tauren13 said:
(Cainehill gets) the flamer of the year award for trying to rekindle another's argument and partake in it himself

First, I don't think you understand what a flame is, if you think that was a flame, and most definately if you think that would come close to a "flame/flamer of the year award". Perhaps you haven't been on the internet long....

I gave Magnate information he didn't consider, and if I used the word 'stupid', well - that word had certainly been flying back and forth already. It wasn't a flame - it was an abrasively toned educational post, and there is a big difference between the two.

but what is the problem with panther's suggestion; making it morale based. thus, a commander with 30 morale and hardly any damage/fatigue, probably an SC, will stick around, but a commander with 10 morale and 60 fatigue will run off, probably a mage.

What are the problems with this? For one: all Pretenders and Prophets have a morale of 30. So, let's see - a Crone pretender with her whopping 9 base HPs is going to stick around after her knights and infantry have been slaughtered. Likewise the 10 HP mage pretender will keep on casting spells until surrounded and killed. Say, this is a great idea! After all, the first hit they take, they'll almost certainly finally rout.

Oops. First hit they take, they're probably dead. Oh well - no biggie, people aren't taking light weight human-ish rainbow Pretenders anyways, right?

On the other paw, it lets big honking SCs bring in a bunch of chafe to soak up casualties for them while they're casting their buffs. The chafe finally routs and gets out of the SCs way.

So, it also makes SCs a lot more powerful, as though they really need that.

If a commander brings troops, it presumably has a use for them. If the troops get slaughtered (or run away), that commander presumably doesn't want to stay on the field.

If it _does_ want to stay on the field, it should either not bring the troops, or bring troops that will stay alive long enough for the SC to do its work.

There's a number of ways to manage this; the simplest is to take a crippled foot soldier, stick him in a rear corner with "Hold and Attack" orders.

Yes, some of the things you have to do are counter-intuitive, but this isn't a military simulation / tactical model, and doesn't pretend to be.

The main thing that seems to be broken is that commanders route because wimpy summonses got killed or routed : phantasmal warrior, the Moloch's imps, a skeleton, etc.

[Boron]

Kristoffer O said:

It's not stupid unless you know how the system works.

There is nothing such thing as common sense in computer programmed actions, only what devs consider rational solutions and responses to given situations. Responses have to be based on anticipated results and problems as well as simplicity.

The current system does not reflect common sense in every situation. It is a rule that is be based on common sense and general utilability (is this an english word at all?).

If you understand the premises the rule is (hopefully) acceptable.

Adjustments could be done, but it would risk making the system opaque and more unintuitive. The current system gives the player control if s/he is aware of how the rules work.

you misunderstood me completely kristoffer

this argument was thought to convince Sly Frog that he just didn't use his scs clever assigning them a few archers and complaining they rout . so i wanted to show him that not the system is to blame but he himself is to blame because he made a "stupid" fault .



[/quote]

the current system is imo really great .
your suggestions would imo be not improvements but worsenings
as it is it is very very balanced .

here e.g. i wrote that i think that the current morale system is really great and can't be improved furthermore

[Arryn]

Boron said:
what is your impression of starcraft ?
i think it is still the best true RTS game .

i have star wars rebellion myself but with pause like the paradox games it is basically TB .

I had a great deal of fun with Starcraft years ago. And with the expansion pack for it. I've even occasionally reinstalled and played it over the past few years -- when I'm feeling nostalgic and super-bored.

Fans of Kohan would argue with you over which game is "best". And I'm sure that some C&Cer would chime in if their game(s) weren't mentioned (though C&C isn't even in the same league as Starcraft or Kohan).

SW Rebellion isn't "basically TB" using its pause, since you cannot issue orders while paused, unlike with the Paradox games. I no longer will play RT games in which you cannot issue orders while paused. Rebellion wiped out any tolerance I had for that.

[The_Tauren13]

i would like to see you stop a 6 AI rush with 10-20 cannons, boron
not to mention when they rush you cant possible on a non-money map have more than 5 cannons

btw sorry about that OT rant... guess i need an anger management course

[Boron]

The_Tauren13 said:
i would like to see you stop a 6 AI rush with 10-20 cannons, boron
not to mention when they rush you cant possible on a non-money map have more than 5 cannons

btw sorry about that OT rant... guess i need an anger management course

i said with canons + berserkers .

and if all 6 ais attack me my partner tries to help too .


if 3-4 of the ais are protos and run the berserk rush script then you lose maybe but otherwise you always hold with the canons + the berserkers .