Mictlan , how to play it effectively

[Kel]

Keep in mind that you don't have to take growth to counteract population loss, you can just take more provinces

- Kel

[The Panther]

Jim_Parker said:
Actually I was working on a strategy of hoarding slaves and then mass sacrificing them at strategic points. I'm doing ok in a military and magic sense (I lead both gem and cash income and have a mid-ranking 'army'). Also, my dominion appears to be getting stronger on it's own - I haven't sacrificed any slaves for dominion so far (I've got the grand total of 2 temples). The whole sacrifice and dominion thing seems a bit different from what the rulebook suggests.

No jade knives yet but I'll have some for the sacrifices. I'm not sure on your point about the population dying btw - the province I'm using for blood slaves is not dropping noticably in population and has no growth scale. I'm basically getting between 5-15 blood slaves per turn for the loss of 26 gold. It has a -2 dominion (right next to Caelum's capital) so maybe thats a factor.

I have to agree about the sacrifice thing. It seems to work odd at best. The dominion spread from sacrificing does not seem to be the same as the dominion spread from temples for other races. Four slaves sacrificed in a single province is supposed to produce 4 temple checks, but it seems less than this in practice. I wonder if the devs can explain this for real. In my current game, I am sacrificing 20 slaves per turn and still not gaining any dominion.

I also wonder about your mass sacrificing at strategic points thing. A huge problem is that only one priest at a time can sacrifice in a province with a temple. I simply cannot see how mass sacrificing will work at all.

As for the population loss thing, your pop is dying if you don't have growth. Write down the population in a provimce from one turn to the next and see how much it goes down each month. Every blood slave you create results in a loss of a minimum of 2 people per slave. The virgin and her mother perhaps???

So, 3 hunters in a single province over 5K population will lose you 30-35 people each turn for the 15 slaves on average that you get. Add in a -0.4% loss from death 2, and you would be losing 50+ pop per turn.

The patrolling thing makes your population drop slightly more than twice as fast as without, for each bandit killed also results in a loss of at least 2 pop per bandit. Plus you have to kill the 3 bandits (on average, but open ended) who come with the mere attempt to hunt whether successful or not. Patrolling with the above scenario means a loss of about 90 people per turn. In 11 turns, your 6K province becomes a 5K province for an average of 165 total blood slaves. Once you get down to 2K population, it is close to useless to hunt anymore, for you are getting only 2 of slaves per turn on average for a 5 increase in unrest.

As long as you can continue to expand by killing someone, this raping strategy works. On a smaller map, if you have to hunker down, fortify your borders, and race to the ice/arch devils, you better hope your initial attack wins. If it does not, then you are dead because your population is delining far too rapidly. You cannot get slaves without population except by wishing. If you have to resort to blood hunting in your capitol, then you are probably dead.

By the way, I did have my level 5 prophet with the jade knife successfully sacrifice 8 slaves per turn, just as it is supposed to be. Even then, though, I could not get my dominion to expand. Probably because I am squeezed between a 10-dominion Ermor and a rapdily expanding Caelum...

[Jim_Parker]

Kel said:
Keep in mind that you don't have to take growth to counteract population loss, you can just take more provinces

- Kel

Good with Ermor, not quite so good with Mictlan...although I can definitely see the benifits of having an undead horde opposed to a bunch of awful troops.

This is probably why Mictlan doesn't have any death mages...kinda a no-brainer if they did.

[Jim_Parker]

The Panther said:I also wonder about your mass sacrificing at strategic points thing. A huge problem is that only one priest at a time can sacrifice in a province with a temple. I simply cannot see how mass sacrificing will work at all.

What I was assuming was a constant 5 slave sacrifice over a few turns would really start to turn the dominion around. That's why I was saving up rather than just sporadically cutting a few throats.

As for the population loss thing, your pop is dying if you don't have growth. Write down the population in a provimce from one turn to the next and see how much it goes down each month. Every blood slave you create results in a loss of a minimum of 2 people per slave. The virgin and her mother perhaps???

So, 3 hunters in a single province over 5K population will lose you 30-35 people each turn for the 15 slaves on average that you get. Add in a -0.4% loss from death 2, and you would be losing 50+ pop per turn.

Hmmm, I'd better look more closely at the figures I'm seeing. Is there another factor involved, like migration perhaps? I've seen a few migrations from my lands before due to misfortune events...do those people actually go elsewhere? Even if they do, I can't quite understand why they'd choose my empire instead.

By the way, I did have my level 5 prophet with the jade knife successfully sacrifice 8 slaves per turn, just as it is supposed to be. Even then, though, I could not get my dominion to expand. Probably because I am squeezed between a 10-dominion Ermor and a rapdily expanding Caelum...

I dunno...there must be a constant effect thing in progress surely? The province I'm currently blood hunting/slaving in had a -1 dominion (as I said, it's right next to the Caelum capital) to start with. It rapidly fell to a -3 but went straight to -2 the turn I built a temple. It's now -1 and I haven't sacrificed a single slave all game or 17 turns overall. A clarification on how Mictlan's dominion worked would be a good place to start I think.

[Cainehill]

The Panther said:
I have to agree about the sacrifice thing. It seems to work odd at best. The dominion spread from sacrificing does not seem to be the same as the dominion spread from temples for other races. Four slaves sacrificed in a single province is supposed to produce 4 temple checks, but it seems less than this in practice. I wonder if the devs can explain this for real. In my current game, I am sacrificing 20 slaves per turn and still not gaining any dominion.

I'm likewise dubious that it's working the way it should be. In one game with Vanheim, I had about 25 temples, 15 of them on one border. All of them I got to neutral or friendly dominion but one in the corner. So - four turns of having a Priest/Blood Van-leader with a jade knife doing sacrifices. Dominion remained stucked at -1 the whole time, with my prophet (dominion strength 10) in the next province, plus all the temples.

[Huzurdaddi]

Not sure I agree with that. Patrolling is very costly in population so it's really self defeating. You can counter it with growth but you can also counter having a few 0% tax 'feeder provinces' with order - and not have to suffer terrible unrest (therefore you have no need of patrolling).

With patrolling you can blood hunt in every provicne with more than 5k pop. Those 12k pop provinces that make your economy go? Those can easily maintain 100% taxes and hold 2 or 3 blood hunters with 50-100 partollers. The cost? 5-10 gold in maintainance. That sounds like a bargin to me.

When you are playig Mictain the blood must flow. Every province should be blood hunted.

As an added bonus it's darn hard for other people to spy on you! Yay!

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
One of the problems with Mictlan is that you are pretty much forced to get growth if you expect the game to Last more than about 50 turns or so.

Even a province with only 3000-4000 people can still be good for bloodhunting in the late game.

[qote]With death scales + bloodhunting + patrolling, your provinces will look like Ermor was there in no time at all!

[/quote]

It's the patrolling that kills the population. The rest don't have a very large effect.

Another huge problem is the fact that after you pool slaves, you must go to ALL your sacrificing priests and put the 4 slaves (you have the jade knife on all your sacrificers, right?) back on them.

Don't use 'pool slaves' with Mictlan. Create control Groups from your bloodhunters in each province, then press 'Z' when you have them selected.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
With patrolling you can blood hunt in every provicne with more than 5k pop. Those 12k pop provinces that make your economy go? Those can easily maintain 100% taxes and hold 2 or 3 blood hunters with 50-100 partollers. The cost? 5-10 gold in maintainance. That sounds like a bargin to me.

You've missed most of the cost there. Unrest from blood hunting is generated before taxation, and then the unrest is removed by patrolling. Your actual income is quite a bit lower than what it would be had you not blood hunted at all.

Plus, a few patrollers with 10 or so hunters will wipe out 5000 people in about 5 turns, while putting three or foud hunters in that same province would let it Last for the rest of the game. The best long-term strategy is to spread your hunters throughout many provinces.

[Soapyfrog]

Graeme Dice said:
You've missed most of the cost there. Unrest from blood hunting is generated before taxation, and then the unrest is removed by patrolling. Your actual income is quite a bit lower than what it would be had you not blood hunted at all.

Hmmm are you sure? That doesnt jibe with what I am seeing. Could be though...

Graeme Dice said:
Plus, a few patrollers with 10 or so hunters will wipe out 5000 people in about 5 turns, while putting three or foud hunters in that same province would let it Last for the rest of the game. The best long-term strategy is to spread your hunters throughout many provinces.

What? 1000 people a turn? No way... I searched with like 10 bloodhunters and patrolled with 100 troops in my capital one turn, snagging over 50 slaves and killing 100 points of unrest and I lost MAYBE 300 population, if that. If it was more I'd be very surprised.

With 3 bloodhunters going and 50 guys patrolling I dont see how you could lose more that 50-100 pop per turn...

The Panther said:
I have to agree about the sacrifice thing. It seems to work odd at best. The dominion spread from sacrificing does not seem to be the same as the dominion spread from temples for other races.

After some tests on Mictlan some time ago I came to the conclusion that the chance to gain a white candle with a sacrifice is 4 times less than an ordinary temple check.
If the chance to get a candle is 10% * maximum dominion, the chance to get a candle with a slave is only 2,5 % * max dominion.

I dont know if the devs are fully aware of this, I think I've never seen an official post on that question...

Cheers