The Cloaking Minister and Minesweepers

[Slick]

I created a separate thread on this just so that everyone has a better chance of seeing it. I mentioned in another thread:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...t=2#Post304644

that a friend told me of a method to overcome the "minesweepers don't uncloak to sweep mines" problem. Well I tested it and there is a partial solution with some other rammifications in the game. First, I'd like to say that I don't consider this an exploit and I checked with one of the Moderators and he does not consider it an exploit either.

Simply use the Cloaking Minister. [How could anyone consider using a Minister an exploit?] In simultaneous games the Cloaking Minister will uncloak minesweepers just prior to engaging a KNOWN or MANUALLY TAGGED minefield, even if the ship was cloaked when you hit "end turn". If the Cloaking Minister does uncloak the minesweeper to sweep mines (or suspected mines), the minesweeper will end that turn UNCLOAKED. If the Cloaking Minister remains on, he will probably re-cloak the minesweeper at the start of the next turn, if not manually done by the player. The Cloaking Minister will NOT uncloak minesweepers when encountering UNKNOWN minefields; in this case, ship(s) will take mine damage as usual without any minesweeping.

I can see some rammifications to gameplay:

- Players can place manually tagged minefields in sectors of high probability of mines (warp points, planets, etc.) to aid their minister on uncloaking; this also keeps the ship cloaked for the max amount of time. Guessing wrong or encountering minefields in random sectors could make this tactic unpopular.

- Not Tested, but probable: the Cloaking Minister will probably act the same way when used while attacking ships/fleets/planets such that the attacking ship/fleet will stay cloaked until just prior to attack. This assumes that the attacking ship/fleet can "see" the target. Someone else can test this to be certain. I only tested this with the Cloaking Minister engaged on my minesweepers with all other ministers off. There is a small chance that using other ministers might modify this behavior.

- This in no way allows bypassing mines nor sweeping them while cloaked. Also, minesweepers will be visible after sweeping in all cases for at least 1 turn. All this really does is allow a player with superior cloak tech to get closer before uncloaking.

- Now that this is general knowledge, each player can decide if this is something they wish to do and/or agree upon for multiplayer games. Hopefully nobody gets upset that I posted this.

Slick.

[Atrocities]

Very interesting. To much work IMHO, but very interesting.

[Fyron]

Cloaked ships are supposed to blow up without any chance to sweep a minefield, known or not. This is an intentional situation created for balance concerns. Since this tactic allows you to remain cloaked until you hit a minefield (even if it is only known ones, which can easily be added manually _everywhere_ in a combat zone), this allows you, a human player, to bypass the balance design of being highly vulnerable to minefields while cloaked. The fact that you are decloaked for at least a turn afterwords is irrelevant because it eliminates the need to remain uncloaked to be safe from mines. The behavior of the AI minsister is there strictly for use by the AI, which has no capability to determine probable risk of encountering mines while cloaked, as a human does. Therefore, this is certainly a highly suspect, gamey tactic. More likely it is an outright bug exploit.

How could anyone consider using a Minister an exploit

Using a minister is not an exploit. Abusing a minister to bypass legitimate rules of the game in an unintended manner is an exploit.

[Slick]

Imperator Fyron said:
The fact that you are decloaked for at least a turn afterwords is irrelevant because it eliminates the need to remain uncloaked to be safe from mines.

You are not safe from mines when cloaked. Even with the minister on. Being uncloaked afterwards is most relevent; you are now able to be seen. If you were cloaked afterwards, it would amount to sweeping mines while cloaked.

Imperator Fyron said:
The behavior of the AI minsister is there strictly for use by the AI, which has no capability to determine probable risk of encountering mines while cloaked, as a human does.

Poppycock. The ministers have been there from initial release as a means for the player to use as he sees fit to minimize micromanagement.

Imperator Fyron said:
Therefore, this is certainly a highly suspect, gamey tactic. More likely it is an outright bug exploit.

Since your basis is poppycock, your conclusion is also.

Imperator Fyron said:
Abusing a minister to bypass legitimate rules of the game in an unintended manner is an exploit.

Abusing a minister? By turning him on? Hey, newbies, turn on all the ministers and be unbeatable!!!

edit: This came from the SE5 sticky thread:

Imperator Fyron said:
This is what the Ship Design AI minister is for. No need for any special wizards...

Classic doubletalk.

If you don't want to play in games where players use ministers, set up an agreement ahead of time.

Slick.

[geoschmo]

I don't see what the problem is here really. This is at worst only slightly flukey in my opinion. Not a serious issue at all. If the ship ends up decloaked after the turn, then this is effectivly the same thing as the player manually decloaking on the turn he moves into the known minefield. At best the player gets to move a couple squares cloaked that he wouldn't have otherwise. This would only be an issue if the defending player had some non-minefield defenses in a sector that the attacking fleet would be moving through prior to hitting the minefield. In a sim turn game the defender wouldn't see the ship uncloak anyway.

In fact, it may be that there is absolutly no difference here. The minister may uncloak the ship at the start of the turn. We'd have to run some carefully setup tests to see exactly the sequence things were happening in.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

In fact, it may be that there is absolutly no difference here. The minister may uncloak the ship at the start of the turn. We'd have to run some carefully setup tests to see exactly the sequence things were happening in.

Would you care to test it? From Slick's description, it seemed like the minister would decloak the ships if there were mines there, otherwise it would allow them to continue on their merry way...

[Slick]

The minister would decloak if a cloaked ship were told to either move onto a KNOWN (automatically tagged minefield due to running into mines there) or TAGGED (manually created minefield tag). The decloak would occur sometime between the "end turn" and the minesweeper moving into the marked sector. The replay log is unreliable so I don't think there is any way to know exactly when the ship decloaks. But it doesn't matter since in simultaneous turns, if the defender can't see the cloaked ship before he hits "end turn" there isn't anything he could have done about a mid-turn decloaking.

Slick.

[Fyron]

So it decloaks whenever it is going to move into a known minefield, regardless of whether there are mines there or not?

[geoschmo]

Yeah, you misunderstood him Fyron. If it were uncloaking for UNKNOWN minefields then I would totally agree with you that would be a nasty bug expolit. But that's not what's happening according to his description.

[Captain Kwok]

Imperator Fyron said:
So it decloaks whenever it is going to move into a known minefield, regardless of whether there are mines there or not?

Yep, just like you would have known if you read the first post in the thread. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Anyway, more in-game tests are needed to confirm the reliability of this move. If it does prove workable, I wonder what other moves can be thought up?