abysia strategies

[Kel]

1. When people talk about Aby being in the top 5 races, most people are talking about them in MP. I don't know if they still are in SP but some rankings, like AE Ermor for example, may change based on MP/SP. They might still be top 5 in SP but just realize that when most people talk about strategies in Dom2, unless specified, they are talking about MP and any corrleation to SP is incidental.

2. Afaik, until a single cheater was found not that long ago, don't be afraid of MP because of a fear of cheating. While it is clearly possible to cheat, I think it is probably *far* less common in Dom2 than other MP games. I don't know if the single person discovered cheating was the only one, necessarily, but just the fact that it caused so much shock is a good indiciator that it isn't very common. I entirely quit playing Diablo2 because of the rampant cheaters so it would be a factor for me, too, if I thought there was much of it.

3.
a) Watchtowers good
b) Alt-2/Blood 5-6/Const 6 in that order if there are other blood nations to compete with in MP (to race for unique summons since they have to get to const 4).
c) Helios are definitely worth summoning. As good as an ID/AD ? Maybe not...but still really, really good. Plus, you get a 4D mage with one of them, which I am almost always happy to see.
d) ID's on turn 15 is decent enough, imo. That's usually what I aim for but it may also depend on the settings you are using, which you did not specify. On turn 15, though, they are not going to be equipped very well so they may not get sent out until later (except for Gaap, I just give him a luck ammy and send him out asap). Fortunately, they have other uses as site searchers, researchers and summoners (for Cimejes and Bune).
e) How many provinces I set to blood hunting in the early game usually varies depending on a lot of factors. As a general rule, I try to get the uniques asap. The number of provinces I blood hunt will depend on how early I get them blood hunting and how my research is doing. That sounds vague, I know.
The idea for me, though, is to get the uniques asap. If I find some nice sages early on, I may blood hunt more provinces and let the sages research. If I find no indie researchers, I may have to keep more blood hunters at home to hit the blood 5 research level at the same time I get enough slaves.

4. I would disagree with a lot of what Cohen said. Keep in mind that he is coming from the opinion that Abysia is a weak race, rather than one of the top 5.
a) Aby HI is *amazing*, probably my favorite HI in the entire game, and I rarely find them useless. Yes, I would rather have a devil but there is nothing wrong with having both and, both having heat aura and fire resistance, compliment each other just fine. Also keep in mind that Productivity adds gold as well, something I am always in short supply of.

b) You may lose them all on a rout *if* you set them all in the front and fail to plan for their low movement. Early on, going against a cav/inf province, for example, I usually set them in the rear with wait and attack orders. This separates out the cav and if you rout, you don't lose them all. Low movement is a weakness but it is one you can take into account.

c) Aby HI has a morale of 11. That isn't weak, compared to their peers. It's average, at the very least. You can look at the charts for regular troops and see that 10-11 is common.

d) While I agree with magic-3, if it was based on capitol only mages, it would not be so useful. Magic 3 is more useful when you have lots of cheap researchers, rather than a few expensive ones as it does not add a percentage, it adds a set amount of research per mage. That said, it isn't hard to find cheap researchers. There is almost always an indie around, whether you are lucky enough to find a sage or you have to settle for a shaman or druid.

e) Whether or not Aby has combat mages depends on what your research is and what you are facing (or basically, what stage of the game). I find summoning imps in battle pretty useful early on, for example. They don't compare to the nations that have the best combat mages but they are still useful. Keep in mind that demonbred, for example, are one of the few naturally flying mages and they just happen to be sacred and priest 3 in addition.

- Kel

[Caseus]

Graeme Dice said:

You are.

What about the part where I said:

The actual fun parts of the game -- the huge variety of spells, magic items, and units -- are lost in the intense competitiveness of multiplayer. "You can't do X, that doesn't work in multiplayer!"

Am I wrong about that? Is Dominions 2 multiplayer free of rabidly aggressive, hypercompetitive players who destroy any semblance of fun in the game?

Do you have to use only certain key strategies or you might as well not play? Your own Posts seem to indicate this is the case.

So tell me about me being wrong, please?


Caseus

[Kel]

Caseus said:
Am I wrong about that? Is Dominions 2 multiplayer free of rabidly aggressive, hypercompetitive players who destroy any semblance of fun in the game?

I suspect everyone plays the way that is, for them, fun.

If you don't like playing with people who are competitive, that is certainly a valid preference but keep in mind, *you* are asking about strategies, or at least that's how I took it. Any answer you get will be based on what is an effective strategy, rather than what your idea of fun is.

Lastly, the ironic thing is that you absolutely can use any spell/item/nation/strategy in MP. You may be more likely to lose but if you aren't a "hypercompetitive player", it shouldn't bother you so much.

- Kel

[Cainehill]

Caseus said:
What about the part where I said:

The actual fun parts of the game -- the huge variety of spells, magic items, and units -- are lost in the intense competitiveness of multiplayer. "You can't do X, that doesn't work in multiplayer!"

Am I wrong about that? Is Dominions 2 multiplayer free of rabidly aggressive, hypercompetitive players who destroy any semblance of fun in the game?

You might try a couple MP games and see if that's your experience. Or, try reading through this game's thread. (Yes, it's a tremendously long thread, but skip around the pages a bit; page 15 and 16 for example. A lot of the first and Last pages were about setting up the game, and then talking about setting up another one.) Does that sound like a bunch of rabid hypercompetitive players?

Also, unlike games like Quake or Warcraft and the like, Dominions games go long enough, are slow paced enough, that even a couple of hypercompetitive types don't ruin the fun of the game. (Unlike some of the realtime ones, where you're shot/dead/crushed inside of a few minutes of frantic clicking.) I've had a lot of fun in games where I was doing quite poorly, in part because I was trying out wacky ideas and strategies that were based on my limitted options (troops, forgings, spells researched, mages, etc).

I've played a _lot_ of MP games. My only win thus far was an allied win, and with 3 players and a mutant setup (0 magic site settings, VD research, tiny map, and you couldn't add any magic to the pretender chassis) that didn't count for much. Now I think I have ... 3 games out of about 10 in which I may have a decent chance at a win. Even if I don't win, I get a huge kick out of some of the battles, even ones I lose (or "lose", defeated but with a net gain).

SP got tedious - the AI isn't much of a challenge, I didn't have to work very hard (ie, didn't have to learn and expand my tactics / strategies), and it doesn't mean anything - I could quit a game or restart as soon as it lost my attention. Going against human players, you see a much wider range of strategies and forces that you have to contend with, since the AI tends to do pretty much the same sorts of things.

Do you have to use only certain key strategies or you might as well not play? Your own Posts seem to indicate this is the case.

Nope, there aren't certain key strategies you have to use. There are certain strategies you have to learn to counter though - what to do about SCs, what to do about wrathers, how to try and deal with armies of almost invulnerable troops (such as those produced by Enliven Statues). And there are certain things you have to keep in mind - if you don't work on your research, or don't use the results of your research, you will lose. Even that can be modified, by playing on smaller maps, with research more difficult and, more importantly, fewer magic sites.

*shrug* If you're having enough fun with SP, great. But to many of us, the MP games are a lot more interesting and unpredictable, and therefor more entertaining and fun for us.

[Cohen]

Well explain me so how to do well with Abysya.

[deccan]

Cainehill said:
Or, try reading through this game's thread. (Yes, it's a tremendously long thread, but skip around the pages a bit; page 15 and 16 for example. A lot of the first and Last pages were about setting up the game, and then talking about setting up another one.) Does that sound like a bunch of rabid hypercompetitive players?

Hey, you pointed to our game!

I am too a rabid hypercompetitive player. Uh-huh, uh-huh. I even froth at the mouth like Pasha.

[Graeme Dice]

Cohen said:
Well explain me so how to do well with Abysya.

Fire-9 moloch. Order 3, Prod 3, heat 3, misfortune 3, magic 2, dominion 7, castle. Alchemize your fire gems, recruit an Anathemant Dragon and as many lava warriors as you can afford. Send them out to a weak province on the next turn. Set the dragon and the Moloch to cast flare. Research evocation 1 for fire darts. Continue to purchase lava warriors and use them to conquer territory and hopefully kill a neighbour off in the very early game.

Then either research construction to 6 or blood to 6. Summon the archedvils. Buy warlocks until you get one with water 1. Have him build a water bracelet and trade for a robe of the sea. Put them on the water warlock and summon icedevils if they are still around. Buy warlocks until you get one with air 1 to make flying boots for the icedevils if you have them. Use your gems to equip your summoned commanders. Trade for a dwarven hammer, then build soul contracts. Put decent equipment on your devil commanders from horde from hell.

Try and kill Pangaea's pretender early so that you can force him to be your ally and supply you with fever fetishes in exchange for fire gems and lightless lanterns. Use your fire gem income to both power your economy and kill opposing armies with artillery spells.

Research evocations and use your Moloch as a combination battlefield caster/supercombatant.

There's all kinds of things to do with Abysia, and they are great for brute force power strategies. Plus, they are nearly immune to overland artillery magic. Flames from the sky does them no damage, and murdering winter kills virtually nobody.

[Cohen]

If you buy lava warriors you can't buy researchers. You're outgunned in research. And you can't blood hunt well too. How can you only hope to grab the big Devils if you have in the same game any other blood nation?

Lava warriors will get arrowed very easily by any xbow province. They've no shield.

You assume Pangea is in ... and not always is, and often is of a theme that doesn't allow to forge fever fetishes, and it's not easy to kill another pretender.

They lack of mobility even if they're immune from overland artillery, any cloud trapezing mage capable of wrathful skies will kill all your army with ease.

[anatoli11]

Caseus you should try multi-player!!

I have found that the AI becomes really predictable in SP after quite a few games. In MP your human opponents really stretch your knowlege of the game - Even if you are not doing well, its worth while to stay in the game to try out a few things or learn a few new tricks.

[alexti]

Caseus said:
What about the part where I said:

The actual fun parts of the game -- the huge variety of spells, magic items, and units -- are lost in the intense competitiveness of multiplayer. "You can't do X, that doesn't work in multiplayer!"

You need to specify what you mean by X. I've written earlier that for particular units/spells/item there's a use in MP, but most of them are useful only in specific circumstances.

If you understand X as: "summon all Ice/Arch Devils, Air and Water Queens etc" it won't work. If you can use some strategy, others can use it too, so only strategies that can be executed concurrently are possible. Or let's say reliable.

Caseus said:
Am I wrong about that? Is Dominions 2 multiplayer free of rabidly aggressive, hypercompetitive players who destroy any semblance of fun in the game?

That depends how you define fun. If you have fun only if you're winning, then MP is not for you. Most people here lose much more often than win. And in the beginning you'll probably be losing every time. To me it's more fun to play with aggressive and competitive players, the game progresses faster, and they force me to invent new strategies by attacking before I'm ready for my favourite plan. Also, passive games tend to involve much more micromanagement.

Caseus said:
Do you have to use only certain key strategies or you might as well not play? Your own Posts seem to indicate this is the case.

So tell me about me being wrong, please?

There're some key parts of the strategy that repeat itself in most games: conquer indies fast, minimize your losses, try to conquer your neighbour with minimal losses, use the diplomacy to buy magic items you don't have access to otherwise etc.

But the details of implementation widely vary. From nation to nation and from player to player. To some extent, from map to map too.

And diplomacy can change game quite a lot too.