Atlantis and upkeep/supply

[ioticus]

I tried Atlantis for the first time with the thought of using clam hoarding. I had a nice astral economy and empowered a mage to cast wish. I thought I had the game in hand until I realized my upkeep had greatly exceeded my income to the point I had to wish for gold just to keep my head above water. Also, Atlantis' troops use a huge amount of supply, so much that forging cauldrons of broth was not enough. I will lose this game due to losing all my dominion. Any tips on dealing with Atlantis' supply and upkeep issues? Do you rely on summoned troops?

[archaeolept]

i'm not a big atlantis player, but I have to say i'm puzzled as to how/why atlantis especially has supply problems? perhaps you were buying too large standing armies of chaff troops? But even so, how was it that you weren't able to pay upkeep - was ermor's dominion marauding over your own, or were you just losing prime territories in a war?

also, the cauldron of broth sucks. only make bags of neverending wine.

[ioticus]

archaeolept said:
i'm not a big atlantis player, but I have to say i'm puzzled as to how/why atlantis especially has supply problems? perhaps you were buying too large standing armies of chaff troops? But even so, how was it that you weren't able to pay upkeep - was ermor's dominion marauding over your own, or were you just losing prime territories in a war?

also, the cauldron of broth sucks. only make bags of neverending wine.

Yes, I was losing dominion to someone, but how does that affect income? Also, isn't upkeep based on troop size? Atlantis' troops are sizes 2+, so they require a lot of upkeep. Any why do cauldrons suck? They provide more supply than bags of wine.

[archaeolept]

1. enemy dominion decreases your income by i believe 1% per pt (and your own dominion likewise improves income by the same amount). However, undead dominion (ermor especially, but also carrion woods pangaia) will cause all of your population to die, thus rather affecting income from said provinces ;-)

2. upkeep is based solely on purchase cost and sacred status. upkeep is 1/15 of purchase, or 1/30 of purchase cost for sacred units. Supply used by units is based on unit size.

3. Cauldrons provide 50 supply for 20 nature gems. Bags of wine provide 25 supply for 5 nature gems. Thus, bags are twice as efficient as cauldrons. If you use dwarven hammers, the bags (@3 gems) are two and a half times as efficient as cauldrons (@15 gems).

[Endoperez]

Enemy dominion doens't affect your income straight, with the exception of C'tis Miasma IIRC, but Ermor's dominion kills population *very* fast. Pangaea: Carrion Woods does that also. And if that nation's dominion takes your provinces' scales to negative, that will hurt you. I think enemy dominion also increases unrest, and that in turn lowers income.

Upkeep is not based on troops' size, but recruiting price. 1/30 for most units, 1/15 for sacreds. So remember to watch the number of those mages! Supply use is based on troops' size, and you might have confused it with upkeep.

Wineskins are more cost effective. 5 gems for 25 food is worse than 20 for 50, but You can forge 4 wineskins for 20 gems and get 100 supply points... If you give them to four commanders, that is. Wineskins don't stack with wineskins, cauldrons won't stack with cauldrons, but wineskin and cauldron on the same commander will work fine.

[ioticus]

Yeah, I confused the two. I still need tips on reducing upkeep costs and running out of supply though. I think part of the problem is I get tired of micromanaging taxes and have a lot of unrest reducing my income. What sorts of troops do you normally recruit for Atlantis?

[Wendigo]

As arch says, supply is based on size: your lobsters eat as much as 5 size2 troopers, and your shamblers eat twice as much.

Solve your upkeep problems with a better economy: better economic scales (order, production, growth & luck), a higher admin fort, building forts in your best provinces income-wise, searching for fire-earth gems & alchemizing them with an alchemist stone)

Solve your supply issues with a growth scale (increases supply inside your dominion +20% per pick, and with further increases over time because of population increases), and by picking a good admin fort & building it in those provinces you have supply problems (forts have a supply radius).

A lot of people play nowadays with low admin forts & a death scale, maybe that just doesn't suit you (it's definitely not a 'must do' as far as I am concerned).

[ioticus]

Wendigo said:
As arch says, supply is based on size: your lobsters eat as much as 5 size2 troopers, and your shamblers eat twice as much.

War lobsters are size 5 and shamblers (which I mainly used in the game) are size 3. So how do shamblers eat twice as much?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

splooger said:

War lobsters are size 5 and shamblers (which I mainly used in the game) are size 3. So how do shamblers eat twice as much?

Twice as much as a normal man, he meant. Supply consumption = max(1, size - 1). Except for troops that 'need not eat', of course. [Edit: and Celestial Servants, who eat more].

[Taqwus]

Supply consumption is

MIN(size-1, 1)

That's why. Size 2 humans and those ever-hungry Hobb^Hurgs eat 1 supply, but shamblers (size 3) eat 2, and war lobsters, if they're size 5, eat 4. All assuming the lack of the need-not-eat flag.

BTW, if you can Wish but you lack the nature mages to forge, I -think- you can wish for "food" and get some supply items in a hurry. Haven't cast it to find out how much it actually gives you, 'tho. Also, if you -do- have nature mages... look for a nature/earth mage who can get you Summer Swords, as they do stack with wineskins.

Regarding unrest, it might be good to drop taxes ~10% for every 5 points of unrest or so, if you've already dealt with the cause of unrest -- including restoring your own dominion over it, as enemy dominion causes unrest. Some provinces are better off with a permanently < 100% tax rate, namely provinces with unrest-generating sites.

If you need to get rid of non-amphibious units in a hurry, consider Gatewaying them into a province where they can't survive.