First Non-Pretender SC

[sushiboat]

In my current SP game as Pangaea, things are looking good. However, one thing I haven't done yet (as I get close to Turn 90) is field a non-pretender SC. I may not need a SC for this game, but for more challenging opponents, no SC could be a major weakness.

1. For one or two of your favorite nations (and assuming standard MP settings), what timetable do you have for fielding your first non-pretender SC? What do you do in terms of research, forging, recruiting, etc., to make it possible? What other goals (besides the SC) are you balancing?

2. How/when/where are you deploying your non-pretender SC? Mainly inside your dominion or anywhere? Against hordes of enemy troops or medium-sized armies? What do you steer clear of?

3. What tactics does your non-pretender SC use? Buff and charge? Whole battlefield spells? Drain Life spell/item?

4. What is the life expectancy of your first non-pretender SC? What is the next SC you work on building?

Thanks!

[Tuidjy]

1. With Caelum/Vanheim, I have one or two Air Queens around turn twenty. They
get a wraith sword and a pendant of luck for sure, and a Jade armour, amulet of
anti-magic, astral cap depending on whom I am fighting and what gem income I
have. By the way, if I have Air Queens, I am fighting someone :-) I do not
believe in being at peace when you are prepared for war.

- With Pythium, I do not always use SCs. I have won two or three games where
the only SCs I had were GoF former enemy SCs. Pythium could get an Air Queen
just as easily as any Air nation, but my research priorities are different.

- With C'tis, I do not bother with SCs until late game - about turn 40. I go
for Tartarians. I rely on Drain life/Raise skeleton before that.

2. I deploy them against whatever my enemy uses. I very seldom care about whose
domain I'm fighting in, with SCs. I avoid facing other SCs or mage teams,
unless I have a clear advantage. These I take out with mage teams of my own.
As for armies, big or small, it is all the same. SCs kill armies, that's part of
the definition of SC.

3. Buffs and a lifedrain weapon are a must; even Soul Vortex is only an added
buff, not a substitute for a lifedrain weapon. The only time I do not charge is
when the enemy has a critical mass of D4 mages. Sometimes, I throw wrathful
skies as well, but that's only in special cases... yes, like D4 mages.

4. I consider losing a SC a serious screw-up. In my last five games it has
happened three times. Once in a winner-takes-all battle against a superbly
equiped Vanheim horde, once to a teleport attack from a backstabbing ally, and
once through sheer stupidity - I bought province defense, and then changed my
mind and told the SC to search for sites. I lost a D3W2E2 Tartarian with two
artifacts to a few barbarians, because there was nowhere to retreat. [Edit]
Make that four. I lost a partially equipped Water Queen to Atlantis, but that
was a feint to draw his main army in the open. On the next turn, I teleported
a mage team on top of his army, and mind enslaved, among others, four mages, a
Water queen, and the enemy prophet.

As for the next SC? If I have the Chalice, I will crank out tartarians, and
gift of reason the good ones. I will keep summoning Air Queens until they run
out. Once I start wishing, I will go for Air Queens, Natajara, and Princes of
Death... but that has happened only once, because I usually play Pythium and
Vanheim, and these two nations have no problems putting together mage teams that
can destroy any Scs who enter the magic phase in the open.

Although I most certainly use SCs a lot, I tend to prefer task force made of
Air or Astral mages. Of course, when these mages happen to be fully equiped
Tartarian Titans or Cyclopses, I don't complain :-)

[Boron]

Tuidjy said:
Once I start wishing, I will go for Air Queens, Natajara, and Princes of
Death... but that has happened only once, because I usually play Pythium and
Vanheim, and these two nations have no problems putting together mage teams that
can destroy any Scs who enter the magic phase in the open.

What do you think of Ettin Mandragoras ? I find them almost better then a Nataraja , at least when you have a good bless .

[Tuidjy]

The Ettin Mandragoras are great, but when you are wishing you can afford to
get exactly what you want. Usually, the Ettin is quite a bit better than
the Natajara. But I wish for a Natajara only in a few very specific cases:
whenever I need a really tough meat shield that I can render nigh invulnerable
to as much as possible.

The Ettin is an undead and a construct. Both of these are vulnerabilities that
a good opponent will exploit.

[TheBirthdayParty]

WHAT IS AN SC?

[quantum_mechani]

TheBirthdayParty said:
WHAT IS AN SC?

Super Combatant

Usually it means a commander that is almost immposible to harm with normal troops (due to items, or spells cast).

[Boron]

Tuidjy said:
The Ettin Mandragoras are great, but when you are wishing you can afford to
get exactly what you want. Usually, the Ettin is quite a bit better than
the Natajara. But I wish for a Natajara only in a few very specific cases:
whenever I need a really tough meat shield that I can render nigh invulnerable
to as much as possible.

The Ettin is an undead and a construct. Both of these are vulnerabilities that
a good opponent will exploit.

True . At least the Ettin has good HP though .

I personally prefer wishing for blood or gems though . But you are maybe right a good AQ is so strong that it is hard to get something of equal power with the wished blood or gems .

[atul]

To say something not so late-gamish as wished things...

(disclaimer: I'm no way too veteran yet and have a habit of using a different nation for every MP, so the following isn't too well tested. So take with a grain of salt and insert critique as you see fit - it will be well received)

1. With a nation that has moderately cheap blood mages and decent troops the first Ice Devil can be summoned around turn 13 or so. By turn 20 there ought to be quite a bunch of them equipped with Const-4 items at least. Items include at least those granting regeneration and increased MR, and then everything else depends on assumed opposition - against hordes of small troops life draining weapon and a damage shield are nice, against undead ditch the life draining and get reinvigoration. And so on.

This approach totally concentrates on getting those IDs first as fast as possible, relying on the (it seems to be by the forum posts) conventional wisdom that first you must research Alt-3 for your pretender and Const-4 to get SDRs. But should those who compete for uniques take that route they see when reaching Blood-5 around turn 20 that there actually aren't too many IDs left.

Everything else (initial expansion, site searching, stuff) is sacrificed, and currently I'm not sure whether it's worth the effort.

2. The IDs are used first alone to mop up easier targets, but there will be a time when they are just a part of bigger armies. They are put against anything that is deemed easy target enough.

3. I'd say buff and charge, although there are few good battlefield-wide spells coming into my mind that may be of use in special situations like against many mages.

4. IDs die when the opponent decides they are worth the effort. They can't teleport nor hide, so they can't always choose their battles. The aim being, cause more damage than you receive. As to continuing after IDs, higher blood circles have their uniques, also better construction circles offer more options to equip those SCs.

[sushiboat]

Thanks for the replies.

I assume that the Air Queen gets summoned around Turn 20 and the Ice Devil summoned around Turn 13. How long is it before they see their first solo battle? How long until they are fully equipped? Do you start them off as regular troop support until they are fully equipped, or use them for site searching or research?

atul, what nations do you use for blood magic? Abysia? Vanheim? Do you blood hunt in the capital?

[atul]

sushiboat said:
Ice Devil summoned around Turn 13. How long is it before they see their first solo battle? How long until they are fully equipped? Do you start them off as regular troop support until they are fully equipped, or use them for site searching or research?

Well, I'd like to remind you, the turn 13 is "should everything go really well"-number. In test runs I managed to do it with a good margin but in actual MP botched a bit and got my first ID on turn 15... Anyway, after blood-5 it takes a few turns to research const-4, one turn to build stuff (and research Quickness & BoF), so what would I say? Solo around turn 17-18?

And some depends on who of the IDs you get, Gaap kicks butt, some others have other things going for them. And I'd say they're never ready, equipment changes according to resources and opposition.

atul, what nations do you use for blood magic? Abysia? Vanheim? Do you blood hunt in the capital?

Marignon.

My first try into blood, actually. The excess hunting and then just summoning big badasses hasn't struck me as fun when compared to all the pretty shiny spells other schools allow.

Anyway, troop- and magewise I'd assume Abysia could also single-mindedly rush for IDs, IIRC Vanheim has only cheap blood-1 mages so they won't do. Mictlan has weak troops and needs the help of pretender or early summons. DF Marignon has decent troops for early expansion and relatively cheap blood-2 mages for initial research and blood hunting. B1 mages would need SDRs to hunt well.

And, I don't regularly hunt in capital, I don't think it's worth it.

Hm, I blabber too much. There go my secrets in curren MP. Oh well, they already know it all if they use any scouts... Which, from previous experience, they don't.