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  #51  
Old February 7th, 2005, 03:13 PM
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Gozra Gozra is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

Just a sample of the John Titor talk. I keep hearing tidbits that alarm me I hope I am not turning into an alarmist. ( the mad cow thing is what I keep tripping over)

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 29
pamela: 1.I will ask you about your environment then and I want to know about the family life and also about your religion. what religion has survived? Do you believe in Jesus Christ or someone else. Do people still pray to God? Do you still have churches?
timetravel_0: Yes I believe in Jesus Christ and we pray to God in churches. There aresome differences you may be interested in. Religion is a major part ofpeoples life in 2036. Pain and change tend to bring people together andcloser to God. However, religion is far more personal than it is now. There are no huge, centralized religions and people talk openly about theirbeliefs. It might also interest you to know that the day of worship is Saturday, the day God meant to be the Sabbath and the 10 commandments have been restored to the "10" that God gave us.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 30
pamela: 2. what kind of jobs do people do and do they still work long hours? whats the majority of job types in the future?
timetravel_0: Life is much more rural in the future but "high" technology is used to communicate and travel. People raise a great deal of their own food and do more "farm" work. Yes, compared to now, we do work long hours. After the war, my father made a living selling oranges up and down the West coast of Florida . My closest friend raises horses and another works for a company that maintains "wireless" internet nodes.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 31
pamela: 3.what is a typical day like for someone in your time? do you still havethe internet? has it advanced to all virtual reality yet? what type of diseases are you currently dealing with? are there still advances in science?
timetravel_0: A typical day...hmmm. Life has changed so much over my lifetime that it's hard to pin down a "normal" day. When I was 13, I was a soldier. As a teenager, I helped my dad haul cargo. I went to college when I was 31 and I was recruited to "time travel" shortly after that. Again...I suppose an average day in 2036 is like an average day on the farm.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 32
pamela: 4.Is there still a post office? how do you receive messages from one another? you said most people talk face to face.
timetravel-0: Yes...there is a post office. The internet is still alive and well in the future. People spend more time talking because life is more centered around the community. I've noticed the same type of effect here when the power goes off. People tend to come out of their homes and actually spend time with their neighbors. There is a lot more personal trust and less paranoia.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 33
pamela: 5.what type of houseing do you live in?
timetravel_0: When I'm with my parents, I live in a community made up of "tree houses" on a large river in Florida . The river floods sometimes and we have access to the Gulf. Most of our neighbors make a living off the sea or in moving cargo by boat.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 34
pamela: 6.what started the war? and who fought in it? who won?what countries were destroyed and what survived?
timetravel_0: Wow...that's a big question. There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe . The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska .

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 35
There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 36
In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe .

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 37
The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won.

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 38
The European Union and China were also destroyed.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 39
Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska .

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 40
pamela: 7.did you ever discover what aliens were and ufos?
timetravel_0: No new information there. I find that an interesting subject myself. Personally, I think "UFOs" might be time travelers with very sophisticated distortion units. But that might be a bit wacky.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 41
pamela: 8. what type of environmental problems do you know of that exist? do you have pure water to drink? are you mostly vegetarian-seems how most people are going that way today.
timetravel_0: One of the biggest reasons why food production is localized is because the environment is so screwed up with disease and radiation. We are making huge strides in getting it cleaned up. Water is produced on a community level and we do eat meat..that we raise ourselves.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 42
pamela: 9. are they still messing around with genetics? and altering the food and animals?
timetravel_0: Yes...genetic engineering is used but it's like any other technology. It can be good and bad. One thing we did not do was create more hybrid seeds. What are people thinking???

07 November 2000 21: (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 43
I do not believe faith alone is enough to get us back to God. I'm not sure what happens when we die but I'm pretty sure it's not a walk in the park.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 44
pamela: 11. do you have an advances in spacetravel or exploration?
timetravel_0: No. We are working on it.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 45
pamela: 12. what new inventions do we have to look forward to?
timetravel_0: Hmmm....I hesitate to answer but I'll give a bit. Hydrogen fuel cells and more efficient solar cells are big deals. Computer technology and software gets MUCH better.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 46
As a community, we celebrate much more and have bon fires and dances.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 47
pamela: 14. what are your schools and universities like?
timetravel_0: After the war, early new communities gathere
d around the current Universities. That's where the libraries were. I went to school at Fort UF which is now called the University of Florida . Not too much is different except the military is large part of people's life and we spend a great deal of time in the fields and farms at the "University" or Fort.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 48
Yes, we have cameras. More digital. Film is used like painting is today. No hologram camera though.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 49
pamela: 16. do you still have telephones? what is your major source of energy that you use? solar power? electricity? have you discovered new energies.
timetravel_0: Yes we have phones but the service is through the web. Most power generation is localized. It amazes me how much power is wasted now. Yes, solar is big. There is thought that a singularity generator could also be used but most people are against it.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 50
pamela: 17. how do you take care of your elderly? and your poor and your orphans? and the ones who cannot work?
timetravel_0: The elderly are highly revered and looked after on a community level. So are orphans. There is always something people can do now matter what. The idea of avoiding work is looked down on. Everyone pulls together to keep the COMMUNITY strong.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 51
pamela: 18. what is the dress style of the time what do you wear on your bodies as a style?
timetravel_0: Hats are more common in the future and flashy colors are less common. Dress is much more functional and we "dress up" when ever we get a chance. I have noticed that no one in this time dresses for occasions even when they have the clothes. Why do people wear shorts to church?

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 52
pamela: 19. do people wear their hair differently than we do?every generation has a different style what is the style of your time? what is popular for kids to wear? for adults to wear?
timetravel-0: We do not spend nearly the amount of time on our hair as people do now. Women like to wear their hair longer and men have it much shorter. Both sexes shave it all off when they're in active military service.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 53
pamela: 20. are surgeries mostly performed by lasars? or were there new technologies developed?
timetravel_o: Far less medical treatment in the future even though its more advanced. People die when they now its time to die. No lasers. Genetic medicine and cloning organs are the obvious new techs in the future.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 54
pamela: 21. do you still have the current form of government, presidents and vice presidents like we do?
timetravel_0: No. The Constitution was changed after the war. We have 5 presidents that are voted in and out on different term periods. The vice president is the president of the senate and they are voted separately.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 55
pamela: 22. how do you get from one place to another with not many cars around.do you teleport from one place to another?
timetravel_0: We have cars...just not a whole bunch of them. There is public transportation from city to city.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about time travel) 56
Yes, you could travel to a future that was 0.5 seconds ahead of now but not with my machine. The C204 uses the second as the basic unit of measure. The C206 may be capable of .05 sec.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about time travel) 57
(In the same vien, if you just happened to arrive at "the year 2000" a fraction of a second in my past, or future would I ever know that you just 'landed soonby"?)
No "you" would not. But the "you" on that world line would.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about time travel) 58
(In other words, what makes this time line be 'now' at any given moment versus being any other time. We exist as A point on a time LINE, what is it that defines that point?)
It is believed there are some sort of measurable quantum differences in world lines. I am not an expert on that so I can offer little information.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about the future) 59
(As far as how wonderfull your people are in the time after the war I'm very happy for you. Maybe they succeded in wiping out the RIGHT 3billion people.)
Yes, we did.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 60
(1.Without going into detail what you are here specifically for can you please explain what the primary purpose of time travel is in the future?)
In 2036, a great deal of effort is going into "repairing" our environment. I was sent to 1975 to get a computer system and take it back to 2036. Time travel is not a secret in 2036 and I expect it will become more common.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 61
(2.Why it is used and how often to your knowledge it is used.?)
Right now, its used to get information or "items" that would be helpful in getting a post WWIII world back to a normal condition. There are 7 other time travelers in my unit.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 62
(3.Are there specific time periods time .travelers go to most?)
Right now, most of our practical missions are from 1960 to 1980. There is a great deal of research into later and future periods but the farther you go, the lower the divergence confidence of the world line.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 63
(4.you stated there were several time machines available are they all active at this time to your knowledge?)
Yes.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 64
(5.What kind of car are you going to go back in since you sold the Chevy?)
It's a 1987 4WD. The vehicle needs a strong suspension system to handle the weight of the distortion unit.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 65
(6.Are you able to take people with you in the same car back to your time or another time?)
Yes.

11 November 2000 18:46 (about time travel) 66
(If you change "vehical" do you have to re-calibrate the unit?)
Yes. But its a function of the VGL system. A gravity baseline is taken and rechecked every thime the unit is used. A new vehicle would alter the gravity signature.

11 November 2000 18:46 (about time travel) 67
(What kind of coils are used to contain, and maintain the singularity?)
I am not a phycist so I can not answer that to your level of sophistication. The singularities are held in an enclosed magnetic field.

11 November 2000 18:46 (about time travel) 68
Can your unit also dimensionally travel?)
No. However, the longer the unit is on past a safe divergance confidence, the "stranger" the world line becomes. The unit I have is safe to about 1% for every sixty years at max power.

11 November 2000 18:56 (about time travel) 69
(If your conveyence is accurate to one second then you must have a reason for picking the particular second or at least particular day or week, you did.)
My goal was to reach a certain date and time which is converted into seconds for the computer to make its calculations. I do not pick the second. Its more important to have a low divergance confidence number.

11 November 2000 18:56 (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 70
(Let me guess, you are here NOW to look at the unusual hung election we have going on. Or maybe this is the trigger event in the comming world wide econmic meltdown? Some other piviot point in history? Fess up. Why now?)
I would use the word "elections" a bit cautiously. Perhaps its easier now to see a civil war in your future?

11 November 2000 19:11 (about time travel) 71
(10 years an hour? from 2036 wouldnt that take three+ hours?? how could you survive with merly the pocket of air you caught in your vehicle's field??)
Yes...that's about right but my initial trip was to 1975, not 2000. I guess its a question of how many technical details you really want or you feel I'm making up. We do take addtional 02 and the air pocket is a bit larger than you might think.

12 November 2000 16:41 (predictions for the future) 72
I am here for personal reasons. For a few months now, I have bee trying to alert anyone that would listen to the possibility of a civil war in the United States in 2005.

12 November 2000 16:41 (past predictions) 73
I am curious… will anyone be upset if Florida’s votes are not counted in the Electoral College because of the current “confusion”?

15 November 2000 14:12 (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 74
(The one thing that you are REALLY REALLY NOT supposed to do is show up with something that might be percieved to be "dangerous".)
Have you considered that your society might be better off if half of you were dead?

15 November 2000 14:20 (predictions for the future) 75
It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering belief...but you will find that out yourself in 2005.

15 November 2000 14:33 (about time travel) 76
(One last question, Can anybody operate the 204 unit? Or is it safe guarded by a "key of some kind? Thanks for answering. Yes, you would be welcome at my home.)
The unit has two security systems to protect it from "most" people. One, it has a code that must be entered correctly. Second, and probably more effective now, the unit can not be used by anyone who can't add and subtract.

15 November 2000 14:41 (about time travel) 77
The first "leg" of my trip was from 2036 to 1975. After two VGL checks, the divergance was estimated at about 2.5% (from my 2036). I was "sent" to get an IBM computer system called the 5100. It was one the first portable computers made and it has the ability to read the older IBM programming langages in addition to APL and Basic. We need they system to "debug" various lagacy computer programs in 2036. UNIX has a problem in 2038.

17 November 2000 09:34 (about time travel) 78
It is thought that being close to a gravitational field has a biological effect on all matter including cells. The effect is to slow the movement of electrons in the orbits of their nucleus which thus slows the mechanical and bilological functions of the observer close to the gravity. Thus the passing of time is a local phenomenon depending on how close you are to a gravitational source. This is one example of a theory involving "time shells" progressing in size and intensity around a gravitational point from all matter. The more massive the object, the larger and more influencial the time shells around it (like an onion). Another offshoot of this theory is that kinetic energ

20 November 2000 17:16 (about time travel) 79
(You sold your 67' when you got here? how do you expect to get back?!)
The unit is portable between vehicles. It is very heavy and requires a "stiff" suspension. The unit is currently in a 4WD.

20 November 2000 17:16 (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 80
What you do on your world line is your own business. I can't think of any better way to start a war than for someone to figure out how to make a time machine. Go for it.

21 November 2000 10:41 (past predictions) 81
For a change, I have a question for all of you. I want you to think…think very hard. What major disaster was expected and prepared for in the last year and a half that never happened?

21 November 2000 10:41 (about the future) 82
On my world line, life is not easy. We live in a world recovering from years of war, poison, destruction and hate. All of it, courtesy of the thinking and actions of people that live right now in the same world you do, worrying about which stocks to buy or whether or not a stranger is lying to them on the internet.

21 November 2000 10:41 () 83
My first experience with war came when I joined a shotgun infantry unit at the age of thirteen. In the 4 years I served as a “rebel”, I watched hundreds of people get shot, burn and bleed to death. I know exactly where I was and every detail of the exact moment the first nuclear warheads began falling on Jacksonville.

21 November 2000 10:41 (predictions for the future) 84
I know exactly where I was and every detail of the exact moment the first nuclear warheads began falling on Jacksonville.

21 November 2000 10:41 (right now) 85
While you sit by and watch your Constitution being torn away from you, you willfully eat poisoned food, buy manufactured products no one needs and turn an uncaring eye away from millions of people suffering and dying all around you.

22 November 2000 20:58 (about time travel) 86
Pamela: 1.What exactly would an observer see as they saw you arriving in this time? and exactly what would they see as you departed? would you just appear suddenly or slowly? would you look like a heat mirage for awhile? any light effects? or hazy misty shimmering distortion?
Time travel_0- The observation of time travelers "appearing" suddenly in a world line do not happen very often. There are two cases and two points of view to consider. In the first case, the time machine does not move as it goes from one world line to another and then returns. The people watching on the original world linewould wave good bye and watch as the machine is turned on. There would be a static discharge and the air would appear to "ripple" as if it were getting denser. Then, it would stop and the machine will have appeared to have gone no where. If the machine doesn't move its position from world line to world line, the observer would not see it disappear at all. In the second case, if the machine is moved, it would disappear from the viewpoint of the observer and return in a different location based on where it was moved and turned on from the destination world line. In that case, the rippling seems to dissolve the machine and it disappears. If that happens while you are watching it leave and you expect it to return, you know it was moved or had a serious malfunction. It is actually quite dangerous to get too close to a distortion unit as it enters or leaves a world line. It vents radiation and has a very strong localized gravity field. Personally, I worry about that a great deal.

Here is the best account I could find on the net

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/...r_project.html

The American Police state could happen. I read an article on the Drudge Report than indicates that that folks are leaving the US to go to Canada because of the Bush re-election. And it appears that the republicans are meeting some success in overturning the election in the state of Washington. I am disturbed by these trends as it may incite some folks to violence instead of the ballot box.
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  #52  
Old February 7th, 2005, 10:45 PM

Baron Munchausen Baron Munchausen is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

I prefer http://www.johntitor.com/ as the source for the material.

Under the January 2001 posts is this:

The year 2008 was a general date by which time everyone will realize the world they thought they were living in was over. The civil war in the United States will start in 2004. I would describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse. The conflict will consume everyone in the US by 2012 and end in 2015 with a very short WWIII.

This is why I think it won't be apparent to most people for some time if the timeline is headed in the direction that he predicts. If there are people getting into violent confrontations with police right now, there would probably be deliberate suppression of this news on the grounds of 'national security'.

And here's the prediction about the 'European Army' attacking Russia:

Russia and China have always had a very strange relationship. Even the news I see now indicates that continued weapons deals to allies, border clashes and overpopulation will lead to hostilities. The West will become very unstable which gives China the confidence to "expand". I'm assuming you are all aware that China has millions of male soldiers right now that they know will never be able to find wives. The attack on Europe is in response to a unified European army that masses and moves East from Germany. Also, please be aware that from my viewpoint, Russia attacked my enemy who was in the U.S. cities. Yes, the U.S. did counter attack.
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  #53  
Old February 7th, 2005, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Isn't the most obvious clue that this guy is bunk the fact that his dates for when things will begin are changing? "The civil war started in 2004", until 2004 comes and goes and no civil war, and no "Waco type incidents" have occured, much less one a month. So now it's "the civil war started in 2005..."

Baron, you seriously think that if Waco type events were happening we wouldn't hear about it? Even if you believe the mainstream media is totally co-opted, we'd be hearing about it on the progressive blogs. If Daily Kos is taken off the net, I'll start worrying.
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Old February 8th, 2005, 01:30 AM

Baron Munchausen Baron Munchausen is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

No, the dates are not changing. He left in early 2001 and has not returned (though some hoaxers have tried to impersonate him). This material is the same as it was four years ago. Other people may represent it as saying something one time and then as saying something else at another time, but the original material is the same as it was. (This can be checked with things like the Google cache or the web archive site.) There is some fuzziness in the material itself, but he is trying to describe a gradual process of increasing violence and hostility. And isn't that just how it would have to occur?

And no, I would not expect these events to be completely hidden but it's very early in the predicted time frame. They might not start up for months yet. If we get to 2006 and there is still absolutely no trace of violence it will be much more certain that nothing is happening.
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Old February 8th, 2005, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Actually, if we get to 2006, and there is no trace of violence in the US, then something IS definitely happening... or has already finished happening.

Emotionless body snatchers from outer space, perhaps, or just an old fashioned glassing.
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  #56  
Old February 8th, 2005, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: America the Police State

.....wow.....
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Old February 8th, 2005, 12:23 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

Bunk, I say!!


I always wondered what happens when these things are proven wrong. Where I live, there was this large sect who were told the world would end on some date in 2001, I think. Anyway, it didn't happen, so they just sort of packed up and went home. I was facinated by what would happen next in their lives? Would they revise the "prophecy"? Would they try to find a new calling? Was everything invalidated?

Just odd.
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Old February 8th, 2005, 12:52 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

If you read the stuff closely, you'll see that everything he says will happen is right out of a libertarian wet dream with a good bit of US rural militia thrown in.

In his future,

Everything is decentralized.
Everyone carries guns.
Everyone has any religion they want, and there is much less intolerance based on different beleifs
The 3 billion people that died were the government, and they were "the right people"
Everyone lives in the rural areas and is self-reliant
Anyone who doesn't pull their own weight gets ostracized and kicked out
People often travel via horse - just like a bunch of cowboys.
The Constitution was "re-read and interpreted like it was originally intended to be"
Everyone is in the army and everyone has a role in defense of the village
They still sort of live in "forts"

Waco was the "first shot of the civil war" (there are a lot more important Waco-type events that could have been used instead, frankly. Elian Gonzales, anyone?)

The "civil war" was all about the guv'mint taking over your rights and oppressing people. Therefore, learn how to use a gun, know what you need to survive on in the wild, andhave a kit bag of things you must have if you need to leave in ten minutes. Stockpile water, water filters, and MREs...Oh, and read the Constitution because all americans have forgotten what it origianlly meant

In other words: Occams' Razor practically screams that this is some computer literate militia-man with a history degree who wanted to find some way to up the odds that his vision of a libertarian future would come about. How to do this? Pretend like you're from the future to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The real kicker comes when you look at it as if you were testing a scientific hypothesis: nothing he says can be either proven OR disproven. Therefore, it is pointless. It's like a variety of political or economic theory proponents. For example, Marxists are the worst: they say "look at the world and it's class system/wealth distribution/etc. and it clearly shows that Marxist theory is accurate" And then, if you confront them with a contradiction, they say "Oh, well Marxism accounts for that too by X,Y, and Z."

The point being that if the person making the argument does not give you any way of disproving them, then they are full of BS because they can say everything in the world is explained by their theory. Its' a standard old debating trick, also see it a lot in poorly done academic research.

This guy is a charlatan, if for no other reason than that.

But, it does make a great read. I love reading stuff like that. And, of course, it filled me with angst about the future. I immediately thought about selling all my stock - he's obviously a good writer, and has some sort of gut appeal. More power to him, I say. But, it's still just silly, and in the same vein as the various cults who say the world is gonna end...and when it doesn't, hey, suddenly, all the beleivers were pure enough of heart to stave off world destruction...yeah, right...

Alarik
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Old February 9th, 2005, 07:12 PM

Baron Munchausen Baron Munchausen is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

Well, getting back to the original topic of this thread:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:

A Bill to establish mandatory national ID has been brought up for debate TODAY. As usual, it claims to be an 'anti-terrorism' measure and focuses on immigrants and resident aliens, but it covers all state driver's licenses including those of citizens. By forcing all states to standardize their driver's licenses and giving the data to the federal government this bill will create the centralized national ID system that has so-far been defeated when brought up explicitly. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that police have the right to demand ID any time they choose, this will put the entire population of the country under arbitrary surveillance.

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http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Place Suite 102
Springfield VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

Wednesday, February 9, 2005


The National ID card is back in the news, as Congress is getting set once again to debate the issue.

You will remember that late last year, Congress passed (and the President signed) legislation which starts us down the road to a National ID card. In the name of preventing alien terrorists from operating in this country, the so-called Intelligence Reform bill gave federal bureaucrats unprecedented new powers to force changes in state-issued driver's licenses -- including, possibly, the addition of computer chip technology that can facilitate the tracking of all U.S. citizens.

Now, the House will be debating new legislation, H.R. 418, that was recently introduced by Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI). In considering this bill, the U.S. House will vote on whether to empower the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license -- and under what conditions.

Since you need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer, this will give BATF the expanded ability to impose even greater forms of gun control -- something which it has long coveted. This will become even more apparent if an anti-gun Democrat like Hillary Clinton wins the presidency in 2008.

H.R. 418 is, unfortunately, supported by many Republicans who believe that repealing our liberties will somehow make us "secure." But GOA joined a large coalition of citizen-activist organizations this week in opposition to H.R. 418. In a letter to Congress, the coalition stated:

"Standardization of driver's licenses has long been recognized as a bureaucratic back-door to implementation of a national ID card. With its required linking of databases and ability of the Secretary of Homeland Security to require a prescribed format, HR 418 takes us well along that road. Concerns are further heightened when the bill fails to even provide lip service to privacy concerns, and proposes to share all of our data on the driver's license database with Canada and Mexico."

Realizing government's tendency towards mission creep, no one should be surprised if this database grows to contain far more information than that which is relevant to driving. HR 418 requires that the database shall contain "at a minimum," all information contained on the driver's license as well as driving history. There is no limit to what other information may eventually be contained in the database -- something which should definitely concern gun owners.

H.R. 418 is being touted as a way of cleaning up some of the problems with the law that was enacted last December. But this bill is still an attack on states' rights. It still takes us down the road to a National ID card. And it would still do nothing to keep real terrorists from operating in our country.

ACTION: Please contact your Representative and urge him or her to oppose H.R. 418. You can use the Take Action Now feature to send a pre-written message.

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Subject: BORDC Action Alert: House to vote on REAL ID Act this week
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:09:57 -0500
From: Bill of Rights Defense Committee <newsletter@bordc.org>
To: <newsletter@bordc.org>

Dear Friends:

The House of Representatives is scheduled to take up Rep. Sensenbrenner's REAL ID Act (H.R. 418) next WEDNESDAY, with a vote likely THURSDAY, FEB. 10. Sending refugees who have fled torture, rape, and other brutal human rights abusers back to their tormenters and deporting long-term residents for charity contributions they made long ago will not make Americans safer from terrorism. Yet sections of H.R. 418 would do just that. To avoid debate over the bill's controversial provisions, the sponsor plans to attach his bill to a fast-approaching "must pass" bill, such as the the Iraqi supplemental spending bill or the relief bill for tsunami victims.

Summaries of a few troubling sections and a sample phone script follow. Here are links for more information:

* Bill text, list of cosponsors, and status:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@L&summ2=m&
* Contact information for your representative:
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
* Good analysis of the bill by the American Immigration Lawyers Association:
http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=10,911,5516,8191
* Human Rights First web page where you can send your
representative an instant message:
http://action.humanrightsfirst.org/c...=ga_adv_realid

Summary: You may recognize parts of H.R. 418 as the most troubling sections of H.R. 10, which the conference committee for the Intelligence Reform bills rejected as too extreme, unrelated to intelligence or anti-terrorism, and in conflict with the 9/11 Commission's recommendations. Among the sections of most concern are:

* Section 101, which enables a judge to deny a refugee asylum if she is unable to track down specific documents that corroborate her claims--even if the U.S. State Department confirms that the country from which the refugee has fled never provides the documents--and bars other judges from reversing their determinations because the corroborating evidence is not available.
* Sections 103 and 104 would permit long-term legal U.S. residents to be deported for having given contributions years ago to organizations that later fit the Bush administration's profile of a terrorist organization, even if they are not on a list of named terrorist organizations.

Sample Phone Script: Please contact your Representative by phone and explain why you oppose some of the bill's provisions. For example,

"I urge you to oppose H.R. 418's provisions that will make it much harder for legitimate refugees to gain asylum and place them at greater risk of being deported back into the hands of their persecutors."

Bill of Rights Defense Committee
Web: www.bordc.org
Email: info@bordc.org
Phone: 413-582-0110
Fax: 413-582-0116

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Old February 9th, 2005, 10:40 PM

Phoenix-D Phoenix-D is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

heh.

They missed the most 'interesting' part of HR 418, I think. This was brought up elsewhere in a different context..somehow I'm a little leery of letting an appointed cabinet official waive any laws he wants. The context is 'limited' but can quite easily be stretched to include a lot more than it would seem at first glance.

SEC. 102. WAIVER OF LAWS NECESSARY FOR IMPROVEMENT OF BARRIERS AT BORDERS.

Section 102(c) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (8 U.S.C. 1103 note) is amended to read as follows:

`(c) Waiver-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary's sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

`(2) NO JUDICIAL REVIEW- Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court shall have jurisdiction--

`(A) to hear any cause or claim arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1); or

`(B) to order compensatory, declaratory, injunctive, equitable, or any other relief for damage alleged to arise from any such action or decision.'.
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