Random Picks and Modding...

[Verjigorm]

If you take a look at the Arch Theurg, note that:
H4 = 150gp
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = 10gp
----------
= 380gp

Thus he has likely paid for H4, and he has 2 more points of basic encumbrance than the Theurg. He has received, apparently, a discount for his random book and doesn't have to pay for his body. Removing H4 cost:
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = ?20gp?
----------
= 240gp
* 1.5
----------
= 360gp

Assuming his body cost ~13gp, we get 380gp, so he could have paid for sacredness instead, but not both. Communion in combat is not the only factor, either, as Arch Theurgs can be very powerful ritual casters. I'm not fond of outside-the-norm unit comparisons (they tend to be ludicrously exaggerated), but, I could have a unit with Enc 50 with paths of 3F3E3~? ( ~? = Linked full random) who would be extraordinarily useful in ritual, but almost useless in combat. How much does he cost?

[Scott Hebert]

Verjigorm said:
Wuldn't holiness be taken into account by the H2 cost similar to the bonus abilities given to other magical disciplines?

That is my contention.

Illwinter's site says (in general) it is a 50% increase. Look at Pythium's Theurg however:

Actually, Illwinter's site says that it is a 50% increase for units. It does not state, one way or the other, what it is for commanders.

The Theurg costs 150gp/1rp and has magic paths of A, W, S2, H3. Ordering the paths from highest to lowest we get:
Basic Commander Price: 30gp
S2: 1st Path, level 2 = +90gp
W: 2nd Path, level 1 = +20gp
A: 3rd Path, level 1 = +10gp
-----
150gp
But wait a minute!
H3: Holy Priest = +50gp

Yes, this is perfectly accurate. The Theurg should cost, without any extra cost for being Sacred, 200g, by Illwinter's standards. Such things as this prompted my analysis. Using my methods, the Theurg comes out to about 180g (basically, his 'frame' is worth quite a bit less than 30g).

So the Arch Theurg (according to Illwinter's scheme) gets H3 for free--not including the 50% sacred cost increase.

Arch Theurg, or Theurg? If you're referring to Theurg... yeah, he's HHH and Sacred for free.

[Scott Hebert]

Saber Cherry said:
Living Ermor has non-sacred priests.

Actually, Saber, it's not marked. I deliberately went in and modded BE Ermor's Thaumaturgs Holy... and it doesn't show up. I thought I had checked Upkeep changes, and saw that yes, indeed, they are Holy, but I may have mistaken that.

I do know one of two things, though:

1) Unholy priests cannot be Sacred.
2) Unholy priests may be Sacred, but it is never marked.

Can anyone think of a reason why Commanders can't be Unholy?

[Scott Hebert]

Verjigorm said:
I see... If you see where I am going with the example above, there are many instances in the game where units are given substantial cost bonuses, regardless. Most Holy units are sacred, but few take into account the cost increase for sacredness, and some do not even take into account the actual cost of Holy magic

Perfectly true. OTOH, there are commanders (like the Pan, especially in New Era) who get gimped beyond reason for no apparent reason.

--cite also the Monk, cost 30gp, H2; that is unless, the Monk's "body" as Scott mentions is worth only 10gp and then, his sacredness is still free OR included with the cost of H2.... That still leaves the conundrum of units like the Theurg.

The Monk actually has a negative 'stat cost'. By my rubric, it should cost 45g. 10g for Infantry Commander (it can build fortresses and equip things), 10g for being Stealthy, 20g for Holy-2, 10g for Leadership 25 (I think; I'm going from memory), and about -5 for stats.

The base priest, OTOH, does cost only 30g (the difference between the Priest and the Monk is Leadership 25 instead of 10, and Stealthy).

[Scott Hebert]

Well, theurgs are cheap because they can't really accomplish much without a large set of communicants backing them up. Theurgs and arch theurgs have base encumbrances that are extremely high for most spellcasters as it is assumed that you will have many communicants around.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this and STRONGLY. Theurgs have no business being that cheap. They accomplish plenty for Pythium. They research quite decently well, especially considering they are sacred. Compare them to Mictlan, who has to pay at least 80g more for the same number of paths. The only nations where the Theurg wouldn't be a good researcher are ones that have even BETTER researchers (Man, Caelum, and GE Arco spring to mind).

They are natural communion makers. Unlike the Theurg Communicant (whose only purpose is to 'take it for the team'), the Theurgs can actually do stuff while in a Communion. I've heard people say that their Communion Slaves 'just stand around', but that has never been my experience.

Yes, they have rather high Encumbrance. However, I don't think it's because of their 'communion abilities'. I believe it's due to the fact that they wear heavy robes, which isn't modeled on armor because they didn't want it to be removable. I can point out several other nations that have high-encumbrance mages (Abysia's Anathemants come to mind) but don't have the Communion ability that Pythium does.

[Scott Hebert]

Verjigorm said:
If you take a look at the Arch Theurg, note that:
H4 = 150gp
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = 10gp
----------
= 380gp

Well, you've undervalued the ?. Assuming a full-random pick (which I think is safe in this case), you have to calculate the cost of a 4/2/1 split, a 3/3/1 split, a 3/2/2 split, and a 3/2/1/1 split, weigh them according to the probability of attaining such a split (0.125 each for the first three, 0.625 for the last), and then add to find out how much that '?' is worth.

At a guess, probably between 25-30g.

I could have a unit with Enc 50 with paths of 3F3E3~? ( ~? = Linked full random) who would be extraordinarily useful in ritual, but almost useless in combat. How much does he cost?

Well, see, that depends on whether he's with Pythium or Pangaea. If the former, 100g. If the latter, 500g and capital-only.

[Scott Hebert]

Just as an aside on the whole 'sacred unholy' thing, I noted that Desert Tombs C'tis have them, but those are summoned, not recruited. Also, by screenshot, the Keeper of the Tombs are Holy-2 but not Sacred.

Anyway, I'm through Caelum, and here's the new 'special' values:

Fly: 20
Trample: 10
Research: 10/pt.
Sceptic: 50 (includes Stealthy(0))
Healing: 20

Again, this is in Name/Current Value/Calculated Value format.

C'tis:

Taskmaster,40,36 (does this have animal awe?)
Commander of C'tis,40,38
Lizard Lord,60,48
High Priest of C'tis,120,85
Hierodule,40,38
Sauromancer,180,219
Shaman,110,103
Lizard King,280,217
Empoisoner,110,117

Desert Tombs C'tis:

Keeper of the Tombs,110,103

Miasma C'tis:

Marshmaster,220,211.75

Arcoscephale:

Scout,20,20
Mounted Commander,60,60 (this tells me I'm on to something about the 'mounted' thing)
Hoplite Commander,40,33
Hypaspist Commander,45,35
Strategos,65,45
Priestess,110,107
Mystic,180,166.875
Astrologer,180,187

Arcoscephale, Golden Era:

Myrmidon Champion,35,34
Chariot Commander,70,76
Wind Lord,175,118
Engineer,60,65
Icarid Champion,50,51.5
Philosopher,50,52
Sceptic,50,54

Caelum:

Caelian Scout,20,47
Storm General,35,59
Seraph,100,154
High Seraph,175,303.5
Seraphine,90,108

Caelum,Return of the Raptors:

Seraph,140,154
Harab Seraph,90,100
Harab Elder,270,277

(Yes, Caelum is under-priced just about across the board.)

Working on more... don't know exactly when I'll have it all up.

[Scott Hebert]

I am finished with the national commanders. I will be posting the actual and calculated costs shortly. I am currently going back and inputting all the data into Excel, to double-check my work (I was doing it by hand before). Just a couple of comments for now.

Base Pan is (surprisingly) costed exactly right.
Centaurs are not considered 'mounted'.
My rubric pegs the cost of the Vanheim leaders.

Once I post, I would greatly appreciate people's input as to the various costs associated with the various abilities. As it is right now (in Excel), I will be able to rapidly change the values (and thus the totals), as a way of trying to fine-tune this.

Also, if any modders want to see how their commanders do under my rubric, please LMK (the raw data on the commanders would also be nice).

Finally, isn't there a mod that gives you access to every unit in the game? If there is, please LMK so that I can do the same for the independent commanders that I did for the national ones.

[Endoperez]

There is a map that gives you all units, but you wouldn't see their current gold cost from there. Edi has made excel spreadsheets that contain that information, they are on Arryn's site at http://www.dominions-2.org/

[Scott Hebert]

I used to have those. Are they accurate? (Not throwing stones... it's one thing to see the game info in front of me; it's quite another to work through a spreadsheet.)

In other news, here's the 'mass printing' of the calculated vs. 'real' costs of the national commanders (sub Oceania and Abysia, for the moment). I will edit this post with their information when I work up just a bit more sticktoitiveness. BTW, capital-only commanders gain a 10% reduction in price, after all calculations; Commander prices are rounded to the nearest multiple of 5; and it will be in the format of Commander Name,Real Cost, Calculated Cost.

Atlantis:

Atlantian Scout,20,30
Shambler Chief,50,50
Consort,80,90
Coral Queen,230,240
King of the Deep,290,290
Initiate of the Deep,60,45
Deep Seer,180,210

Pythium:

Scout,20,20
Assassin,60,60
Centurion,30,25
Emerald Lord,80,50
Serpent Lord,130,75
Theurg Communicant,50,40
Battle Deacon,90,45
Theurg Acolyte,90,65
Theurg,150,190
Arch Theurg,380,375
Hydra Tamer,55,40

Pythium - Serpent Cult:

Serpent Lord,130,85
Serpent Acolyte,80,65
Serpent Priest,190,210

Man:

Forester,25,30
Castellan,30,30
Monk,30,45
Bard,75,80
Lord Warden,130,70
Daughter of Avalon,80,105
Mother of Avalon,130,140
Crone of Avalon,230,255

Man - Last of the Tuatha:

Sidhe Champion,140,125
Sidhe Lord,280,250
Tuatha,390,385

Ulm:

Spy,30,30
Commander of Ulm,30,30
Black Lord,130,85
Master Smith,140,150
Siege Engineer,50,30
Priest,50,30
Lord Guardian,80,45

Ulm-Iron Faith:

Black Acolyte,40,30
Black Priest,140,140

Ulm-Black Forest:

Commander of Ulm,40,20
Ranger Captain,45,35
Illuminated One,80,60
Member of the Second Tier,160,145
Wolfherd,50,35
Fortuneteller,90,80

C'tis:

Taskmaster,40,35
Commander of C'tis,40,40
Lizard Lord,60,50
High Priest of C'tis,120,85
Hierodule,40,40
Sauromancer,180,220
Shaman,110,95
Lizard King,280,215
Empoisoner,110,105

C'tis - Desert Tombs:

Keeper of the Tombs,110,95
Sauromancer,180,225

C'tis - Miasma:

Marshmaster,220,210

Arcoscephale:

Mounted Commander,60,65
Hoplite Commander,40,40
Hypaspist Commander,45,40
Strategos,65,50
Priestess,110,105
Mystic,180,165
Astrologer,180,170

Arcoscephale - Golden Era

Myrmidon Champion,35,40
Chariot Commander,70,75
Wind Lord,175,95
Engineer,60,60
Icarid Champion,50,45
Philosopher,50,45
Sceptic,50,50

Caelum:

Caelian Scout,20,45
Storm General,35,60
Seraph,100,155
High Seraph,175,305
Seraphine,90,110

Caelum - Return of the Raptors:

Harab Seraph,90,100
Seraph,140,135
Harab Elder,270,250

Ermor:

Centurion,30,25
Ermorian Cultist,45,30
Thaumaturg,130,120
Grand Thaumaturg,340,315

Marignon:

Paladin,130,65
Friar,40,50
Inquisitor,110,115
High Inquisitor,210,225
Initiate,65,50
Witch Hunter,150,155
Grand Master,270,305

Marignon - Conquerors of the Sea:

Captain,75,35
Chartmaker,90,80
Royal Navigator,200,205
Missionary,60,45
Admiral,100,40

Marignon - Diabolic Faith:

Diabolist,80,65
Goetic Master,190,205

Pangaea:

Black Harpy,20,45
Centaur Commander,60,60
Minotaur Lord,60,75
Centaur Hierophant,80,100
Dryad,110,140
Pan,350,350
Pandemoniac,320,265

Pangaea - New Era:

Cataphract Commander,60,60
Minotaur Commander,60,65
Keeper of Traditions,90,90
Dryad,110,110
Pan,350,290

Pangaea - Carrion Woods:

Panic Apostate,320,290
Black Dryad,90,100

Vanheim:

Herse,30,25
Vanherse,160,160
Vanjarl,280,280
Dwarven Smith,180,190
Vanadrott,380,325

Vanheim - Mitgard:

Vanherse,160,145
Vanjarl,280,255
Galderman,160,165
Volva,120,115

Vanaheim - Helheim:

Hangadrott,400,385
Svaltalf,180,165

Jotunheim:

Chief,50,75
Jotun Scout,50,95
Jotun Herse,60,85
Jotun Jarl,130,105
Jotun Gode,200,130
Vaetti Hag,55,55
Jotun Skratti,250,245
Gygja,250,205

Jotunheim - Utgard:

Seithkona,90,70
Norna,220,190

Jotunheim - Niefelheim:

Niefel Jarl,500,360
Gygja,250,230

R'lyeh:

Traitor Prince,60,70
Illithid Lord,80,85
Star Child,85,105
Starspawn,150,190
Starspawn,280,300

Mictlan:

Tribal King,40,50
Mictlan Priest,80,70
Priest King,250,235
Rain Priest,230,200
Moon Priest,230,200
High Priest of the Sun,390,350

Tien Chi:

General,80,70
Eunuch,25,10
Imperial Consort,40,15
Ceremonial Master,50,30
Minister of Rituals,100,60
Master of the Way,100,85
Celestial Master,250,195
Prince General,150,85

Tien Chi - Spring and Autumn:

Noble,80,85
Master of the Dead,75,60
Master of the Five Elements,190,140
Celestial Master,250,235

Tien Chi - Barbarian Kings:

Khan,100,85

Machaka:

Machaka Chief,30,30
Machaka Commander,45,40
Spider Lord,100,90
Ear of the Lord,70,65
Eye of the Lord,50,60
Voice of the Lord,90,80
Witch Doctor,80,65
Sorcerer,190,170
Hunter Lord,170,90
Black Sorcerer,250,205
Sorceress,110,80
Bane Spider,150,70

A couple of things to note:

The Philosopher now has the same cost as a 1-path mage. Researches two better, but can't cast rituals/forge items/find sites.

The Witch Doctor has the same research per turn that a 1-path Holy-2 priest has. So, in exchange for not being sacred, he has two more paths to ritualize/forge/find.

Now, I will try to find space for my mod somewhere, and then link to it from here. Something that will be in my mod is to increase the Astral and Death site-searching spells to 2-path required (and reducing Death's cost to 2). I feel that it breaks an otherwise equitable relationship. Voice of Apsu will also be moved down to Conjuration-2.

Once I have the mod posted, I need people to test it. Specifically, I'm afraid that if I follow the rubric, Caelum will definitely break, and R'lyeh will have problems.

While testing this version, I will be looking at another version that has slightly different magicpath costs. This is to try to alleviate the 'cheap 1-path mage' issue, but it will break R'lyeh and Caelum even more, so more analysis will be needed.

Anyway, comments are greatly welcomed.