What it will take for me to purchase Dom III

[BigJMoney]

I don't know how most of the entrenched community (especially those of you from Dom I) feels about this topic, but I'd like to offer my opinion as a still fairly new player to Dominions. I don't really play Dominions very much. I played the demo, and I paid retail for the game, but after a few games, I just can't bring myself to play it again. The reason? I think summoning magic is too necessary for winning the multiplayer games. And, if it is used in Single player the same way it needs to be used in Multi Player, you can utterly dominate your opponents. Dominions II has a nice range of Empires, a nice range of units, a huge range of spells; thus, a varied range of available tactics. The problem is, none of the truly winning tactics seem to rely upon all of the nuances that can arise when you mix the Empire specifc traits and units with all the other factors. They do seem to rely on summoning magic, however. Now, what Empire you choose will affect when, how and which summoning spells you use. It also affects the early game strategy. Supposedly, some Empires use magic more than others. Truthfully, I think they all rely upon it exactly in the same way. Some Empires have more and varied magical options open to them, but I can't think of a single empire that can rely on any of its non-magic special abilities to win a game.

Now, maybe all this is intentional. It could be that Dominions simply isn't the right game for me. However, with all of the 'content' that Dom II has, I find it very hard to believe that it was intended to be the "summoned armies game". One other area this comes up in Dominions is in some of the "must have" magic items that exist in the game. I read a very informative article that a WotC Magic: The Gathering designer wrote on good strategy gaming design. One of his points was that a "broken" piece was a piece in a game that the majority of players look at and say "why should I NOT include that piece in my strategy?" That's sort of how I feel about a few things in Dominions, either a few spells or a few magic items, maybe depending on which Empire you choose.

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a threat or negative criticism. It's just my opinion on the few areas I think Dominions could do better in for Part III. And, if they aren't addressed, I can't say I would be willing to buy it. Which would be too bad, because Dominions has so much going for it.

=$= Big J Money =$=

[Arralen]

You're right.
This is a very accurate analysis and critcism of Dom2.

It might help somewhat to try a game with

• very difficult research
• map with 10..14 prov/players
• indies 6 or 7
• sites <45% *i forgot to mention*

That way it should take some time for the summons to show up. Nations like Vanheim with a Fire9-Water9 bless could get away without any summons for quite some time. But, o.c., in the long run they are inevitable.

Unless you use some mods.
E.g. you may mod the scales and the production settings so you get more growth, more supplies and more gold - all this will strengthen the conventional units somewhat.

And if I ever find the time before Dom3 arrives (or maybe even afterwards), I'll finish my mod which roughly doubles the gems costs of summons and will make most of them require upkeep. This is a huge task, so I can't promise I'll ever finish it, sadly.

A.

edit: added sites setting

[Sammas]

Even with the bias toward magic, Dominions still has far more content and depth in it than any other game in its genre.

But yes, I too think it could be even better if national troops played a role throughout the game (configurable PD? more spells enhancing national troops and troop production? better gains from XP?).

At the moment, to lessen the power of magic, you need to make research harder, reduce magic sites (on large maps), and ban or limit clams, fetishes, and blood stones.

[Chazar]

Using small maps (10-12 per participating player) is all it takes make the game to progress quicker, where there isnt simply enough time to accumulate the gems necessary for lots of summonings... How long do your games take? Are they over after 40-60 turns?

Another thing is the playstyle: If all player wait and built-up, national troops are a burden by their upkeep alone. As soon as there is one aggressive player around, the game changes, as gems are burned by mages on the battlefield rather than hoarded and turned into summonings...

But you are still right somehow: resources, upkeep, food, slow movement are much too much trouble for troops which get burned away by the next mage, if there are so many upkeep free non-eating critters around, which actually survive a blast and deal damage all by themselves. National troops can use a little boost (see mods) and battlespells should have casting times longer than a single turn.

There are boosting spells, but most are area-1 or battlefield wide and I agree that there should be more 10-area boosts and more of the barksin variety, which also have some drawbacks...

[Ironhawk]

Yeah your points are good BigMoney. I'm also saddened by how little national troops get used as well. Dom2 definitely has a bias towards summoned creatures for combat. The only way you could really get away with it is with an uber-bless on a small map as Arralen pointed out. But of course thats just a niche case.

That said, I still think that Dom2 is the best MP game out there. National troops aside, it still has the most depth of anything I've seen. Plus it really has the format and pacing for long term multiplayer games down *pat*.

As for how to solve the problem of national troops... dunno. Maybe you could have it where mortal/national troops gain exp way faster? Or perhaps there could be national spells which effect only national units? Kind of like a bless but on regulars? That would make national units increase in power as you put in more research.

Might also be interesting to have new buildable structures. They would add on a nation-specific site that would allow you to recruit really really powerful national elite troops on par with summons. Could make the sites cost like 2000gold and like 30gems of whatever that nation normally uses? Some kind of mechanic like that where you can put an investment in that is not based on Research and magic/gems.

Oh - I forgot to mention the battlefield killer spells (wrathful skies, etc). Gonna have to do something about them if you want to have more emphasis on troops. Right now battle magic goes: single target, ball target, slightly larger ball, and *entire battlefield*. Might be nice to have some more granuality there and less extremeity at the end

[condors]

I think every troop summoned or not should have an upkeep value attached to it (closest to being free should be your national troops, than neutrals, highest should be magic summons). Bane lords shouldn't serve me for nothing while commander joe costs me money every turn.(imho)

[Arralen]

As I Said - doubling the gem cost and giving them a gold cost (upkeep = cost/15) will do the trick. I started working on the mod, but it's a hughe task and I doubt I'll ever get it finished without help.

Btw., doubling the summoning costs will make thugs from hired commanders more viable, and forged low-level items more valuable. Atm, who's going to forge a spear for 5 nature gems if he can get 10 or more vine men for the same amount of gems?

[Chazar]

condors said:
I think every troop summoned or not should have an upkeep value attached to it (closest to being free should be your national troops, than neutrals, highest should be magic summons). Bane lords shouldn't serve me for nothing while commander joe costs me money every turn.(imho)

Completely agreed! Resources, upkeep & food cleverly govern troops! The whole thing is just side-stepped by powerful non-eating upkeep-free summons! I don't mind ashen-empire's soulless and their ilk, but immortal commanders should demand something for their power! So what's the solution?

Limiting the time of service of a summon, thus turning higher summons into mercernaries paid with gems instead of gold? Hmm, not sure if I would like that... Otherwise, undead/demon pretenders receiving discounts on summoning might then present a bridge between both systems.

Let's hope that DomIII improves that situation, without loosing its endgame-flavour as a war of gods and magic where mortal pawns are consumed by the dozen...this is important too, isn't it?

[Arralen]

You don't have to wait for Dom3 - modding Dom2 gives enough possibilities to rectify the shortcomings IMHO.

So any volunteers to help me ?

[shovah]

Chazar said:

Completely agreed! Resources, upkeep & food cleverly govern troops! The whole thing is just side-stepped by powerful non-eating upkeep-free summons! I don't mind ashen-empire's soulless and their ilk, but immortal commanders should demand something for their power! So what's the solution?

Limiting the time of service of a summon, thus turning higher summons into mercernaries paid with gems instead of gold? Hmm, not sure if I would like that... Otherwise, undead/demon pretenders receiving discounts on summoning might then present a bridge between both systems.

Let's hope that DomIII improves that situation, without loosing its endgame-flavour as a war of gods and magic where mortal pawns are consumed by the dozen...this is important too, isn't it?

would immortality not be enough of a payment?