Oblivion

[OG_Gleep]

A lot of people have turned to the console to correct mistakes.

But what you said is true of most non-action RPGs that let you create a character....regardless of system (skill or xp). This can happen in MMO's as well, and that is painful.

You make roll a character or party, only to find out that you nerfed yourself because: the selections you made were nerfed to begin with, were nerfed because they were overpowered, or will be nerfed in a future update. In the D&D based systems I'll spend hours re-rolling parties because I found the selections I made weren't working, or I found something that worked and I needed more of it. Actually, I spent more time re-rolling playing the Exp type RPGs than I ever did in any of the Daggerfall series. In most CRPGs, the difficulty tends to continually ramp up. Maybe if you gave me some examples of games that let you go to "easier" or "hard" areas it would jog my memory.

Action RPGs or Actionish type RPGs are exceptions, because once you choose a class, the options players are given are mostly cosmetic. And a lot of times they do have "areas" like MMO's, where areas were ment to be played by characters in a set level range.

But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

[Saber Cherry]

OG_Gleep said:
But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

I was thinking about console RPGs

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Saber Cherry said:

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

While most people would disagree with Diablo being a rpg, I think the Diablo system has both it's advantages and flaws. For example, it gives you no reason to go into the "easier" areas once you are too experienced, meaning that in the upper levels you will see a lot of hell and nothing else. This get's boring very fast, and I prefer the multitude of settings you can enjoy while having a challenge in Oblivon.

[Gandalf Parker]

Diablo II is one that I enjoyed enough that I would enjoy it just as much if they redid it and offered it with no changes other than new maps. And even if they only worked in local mode.

As for the thing about usual keypresses not working, thats usually a sign that its being written for another platform.

[OG_Gleep]

Diablo falls into the Action RPG category, which can't be compared to traditional RPGs like Baldurs Gate and Oblivion.

And a MMO is inherently different then a offline RPG. MMO's can make design choices that aren't feasible in a offline RPG and vise versa.

I never did play Wizardry 8, so have no experience to respond from. But it sounds like you are more into the action/strategy RPGs then traditional crpgs. I enjoy all three, but trying to compare them because they share three letters may be where your going wrong. Most people lump them into the same category but imho they are three sperate genres.

Shining Force - Fire Emblem - Buck Rogers - Final Fantasy Tactics - Fallout Tactics

Diablo - Dungeon Seige - Xmen - Untold Legends - Never Winter Nights

Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

While comparisions work within the grouping, they just don't work once you start trying to compare them to games outside their genre. I think its a crying shame that games like Ground Control are compared to Warcraft. Take resource gathering/base building out of an RTS and its not a RTS anymore.

The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame. I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest. Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game....my play time will likely end when this character does.

So for me, its dissapointing that my main incentive to dungeon romp is about to dissapear. Yes mods are an option, but I'm not a graphic wiz, and I hate mods that use my old armor graphics, to "represent" something totally new.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Have mods with new graphics even come out yet? Most of the mods I have tried have been cosmetic or tweaks of some kind.

BTW if you haven't tried it, BTMod is awesome. They zoomed out the interface a bit...the inventory has 15 lines now instead of 6 for example. They changed almost every gui/interface related screen in some way. The map is zoomed out, which I like a lot better. Theres also a "pre-configured" options package available that provides screenshots of the different options, and instructions on how to install the files. The only complaint I had was the actual inventory screen..it was a little too small for me, so I had someone switch it to 10 lines, which is perfect. If anyone wants the file let me know.

[Saber Cherry]

OG_Gleep said:
The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame.

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same

I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

This is a terrible shame, and something I didn't expect at all! Fortunately, it is something that can be resolved by modders, since it's not an engine limitation. But having all the best gear early in the game would really bite. To me, it's similar to (but the inverse of) Blizzard's philosophy for World of Warcraft - expand the game by adding more content for level 60 characters, but never actually allow anyone to go beyond level 60. If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate - almost any piece of equipment you find can have random attributes, and (provided you're in a high-enough level area) there's always a chance of finding some awesome item that totally outclasses whatever you used before. And there were all kinds of effects, too, so it wasn't simply "Sword of +X" like in many games. Plus the gems (and runes, which I never used, as I had no exp. pack) allowed you to customize items...

Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system. In perhaps the dumbest moment of Blizzard game design ever, they even decided that all equipment bought in stores should be incomparably worse than the crappiest things (at a similar level) you can find, yet be priced roughly 10x as much. So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest.

Agreed, and disappointing.

Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game...

What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

[OG_Gleep]

Saber Cherry said:

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same

Hehe was more reffering to the material rather then the weapon itself "Iron Longsword" "Steel Longsword" etc.

Honestly its been so long, I didn't even notice those were missing. There should atleast be 3-4 more material types...at the minimum. I actually skipped glass entirely. I went from Dwarvish to Ebony. Haven't even seen a Glass Long/Short Sword. Have found plenty of daggers though.

If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

In a online game, I am actually driven to hit the cap so I can get on with the "cool stuff". That part doesn't bother me. But your right that something has to drive me. The cool stuff has to be there, be it uber loot, or PvP bonuses (Dark Age of Camelot, and now WoW). In SP games, the journey is exciting, from level 1 to level x. Instead of getting access to it in chunks ala Online games, in SP games it has to be rationed. Feels like I blew my wad a little too early.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate....Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system.....So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

Ah but see, you made my point for me. It isn't irrelevant. While on paper Action, Strategy, Online, and Traditional RPGs might look smiliar the overall goals are different which defines what choices the developers make. In WoW, having a vibrant economy was important, in Diablo...making sure a player based economy flourishes wasn't a factor. Thats why you see a Diablo type item system in a lot of Action RPGs, and why its absent from MMO's. And want to ensure that an economy never sees the light of day? Make NPC Vendor equipment a viable choice for the player.

I agree with you 100% that for Action RPGs, there is no better loot system then Diablo's. But theres a reason its not the standard loot system for all RPG's.

The main flaw with the WoW system is it allows Ninja looters. That was my only complaint. Actually I was really impressed overall. The choices Blizzard made allowed the economy to be up, functional, and flourishing during the beta. Other games can't get one up years after going live.

Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game...

Saber Cherry said:What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Hehe no, I ment that the choices I made during character creation really only effected what level my skills were when I started, not which skills I had access to. You aren't denied access to anything actually. Pure Warriors can join the mage guild, Pure Mages can join the warriors guild. Theres no real incentive for me to do this all over again. If I play a Thief for instance, I'll still pick locks, I'll just do it better then my sword loving-heavy armor-potion chugging-hardly ever use magic Mage.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

Hehe we have been on opposite sides of this thread since the first day, but after all this I feel like I gave you more ammo to hate the game .

This game is far from perfect, but I do feel I've gotten my $50 (or whatever it was) worth of entertainment. And thats all anyone can ask for.

[alexti]

Saber Cherry said:

I was thinking about console RPGs

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

I think in Wizardry 8 only random encounters were scaled with your party level, not predefined areas. So it was much less of a problem.

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

[alexti]

OG_Gleep said:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

[Endoperez]

OG_Gleep, there's one thing I don't quite get. If I understood it correctly, you are saying that if Diablo had had a good plot, and thus had been a plot-based RPG, it should have used an inferior battle/loot system. Why?

Battles should be fun even in plot-based games, and better, unique random items could easily be given as quest awards instead of items the boss drops.