SE:V Poll

[Barnacle Bill]

frightlever said:
Maybe. But will he do it in his spare time for no remuneration? The rights were sold to Strategy First so they could quite possibly pull an Atari and not fund patches beyond fixing bugs. No hate please, I'm just saying.

Strategy First published several Paradox games, yet Paradox also produces free patches for years (until the title is replaced by a sequel) like Aaron. The principle way that Strategy First gummed up the gears in Paradox games was in the early days when there was a separate executable for North America so patches would languish in Strategy First QA for days/weeks after the Euros got theirs. Eventually Paradox went to global executables even on the older games still being supported, and that stopped being a problem. So, while Strategy First isn't my favorite game published, I don't think they are going to force any major change in Aaron's tradition of long-term support.

Basically, there are not very many companies doing detailed high-depth thinking-man's strategy games, and it is a nitch market compared to consoles or even PC RTS, First Person Shooters, etc... The ones that do, and their star designers, acquire a following that they don't dare disappoint. The "usual suspects" are around for years. You see that on this board for MM and on their own board for Paradox. I think switching to the mass market technique (shove it out the door unready, never patch it) would be suicide in this environment. I suspect that even the MBA types understand this...

[Barnacle Bill]

Gandalf Parker said:
I also wonder if the 3D thing might not slow down the creation of new races which is one of the things I loved about SEIV was having something like 300 races in it.

I think this is a legitimate concern, because it certainly worked that way in the Civ franchise. In Civ2 I could and did roll my own unit graphics all the time, whereas in Civ3/4 you need 3D animation SW and I don't have time to learn it.

However, eventually the available Civ3 unit library had everything I could imagine so eventually the issue went away. Looks like CiV4 is on well underway to the same destination.

[Artaud]

Barnacle Bill said:
I think the "fog of war" on the system map is a great improvement to the operational level, and if the system size really can be modded to be significantly larger then there is a potential for a real search phase of naval battles (with an important role for fast cheap recon units, etc..).

I like the "fog of war" as well, but I think it will make SE a smaller, slower game. You'll spend more time exploring each and every individual system, and/or researching sensors, and less time expanding.

I like building ships and doing long-range exploring, not hitting the turn-finished button over and over until I research decent sensors, or sending a ship to explore every hex of a system just in case an optimal planet is there.

I think some have said you can turn off the fog of war feature by modding. It should be an option when you start the game, as is the case with most computer games I've seen that have FOW.

And bigger systems--no, I don't want this. The way it is now, when you zoom out to see the entire system, the planets look horrible and your ships look like ants, when you can see them at all.

I know it's not "realistic" to have ships that appear to be half the size of planets, but this is a game, after all. What's the point of building a navy if you can't watch your ships pass through the system?

Ultimately, it's Aaron's game, and his decision about what direction he wants to take it, so I wish him luck.

I'm still "wait and see" about SEV, but from what I've seen so far maybe this new direction for the SE franchise is not for me.

[Barnacle Bill]

Artaud said:
SEV looks like a game that is trying to draw in the "oh look, it's 3D!" RTS/FPS crowd.

RT or not, I think the new combat system is a great improvement over the old one.

Yes, I'd prefer a turned based system with hexes, SFB-like proportional movement & turn modes.

However, what it is is better than what it was.

[Phoenix-D]

It IS an option when you start the game, actually. You just can't use that option in the demo.

The scrolling problem is probably why the system sizes are what they are. I was just pointing out that the option was there.

[Artaud]

se5a said:
OK I REALLY REALLY HATE this "spreadsheets in space is bad" thing. it's the reason aaron went to bloated UI and graphics crap in the first place! a spreadsheet is used PRECICELY because you can get a lot of information in a small easy to see space.
spreadsheets are GOOD!!!

Well, I also like what lots of people call the "spreadsheet" look in games. I'm a grownup and I want to play computer games about managing (even micro-managing) resources and people. I want to take my time and analyze stuff. I want to pretend I'm running a government and directing the destiny of an entire race. I want to name individual ships.

SE is not a "shoot stuff, blow stuff up" game. It's not a RTS and it's not a FPS.

There will be SE fans who play those types of games (I have and sometimes still do), but for the most part your average FPS/RTS junkie is going to think a game like SE is BORING. The turn-based resource management genre is on the decline, as a trip to any game store will show.

Future incarnations of SE may try to be less like spreadsheets, but they will move away from what many of us consider to be SE--and what many of us find to be so addictive about SE.

[Barnacle Bill]

Artaud said:
I like the "fog of war" as well, but I think it will make SE a smaller, slower game. You'll spend more time exploring each and every individual system, and/or researching sensors, and less time expanding.

Edit - I somehow erased what I wrote here... Actually, I think it will make the galaxy seem bigger because it will take a lot longer to explore it all.

Artaud said:
And bigger systems--no, I don't want this. The way it is now, when you zoom out to see the entire system, the planets look horrible and your ships look like ants, when you can see them at all.

I know it's not "realistic" to have ships that appear to be half the size of planets, but this is a game, after all. What's the point of building a navy if you can't watch your ships pass through the system?

I'm not talking about graphics. I couldn't care less about that. I grew up with cardboard counters. Blips like a radar screen would be fine by me...

I'm talking about a real search phase, where it takes many turns to cross the system and sensor range is less than one turn's movement range, so you have to find the enemy before you can fight them, and if he spreads out to search more ground the larger force risks being defeated in detail. This creates the opportunity for an operational situation like Juteland or Midway. That's what I want!

BTW, that's the direction Starfire (the board game that originally inspired SE) eventually went. Except for warp point assaults, you spend a lot of time manuevering around on the sysyem map and combat only happens when fleets are in the same system hex.

[Captain Kwok]

Phoenix-D said:
..you do realize that most of the UI problems would be the same if it was 2d, right?

Nicely said.

[Artaud]

Barnacle Bill said:
Edit - I somehow erased what I wrote here... Actually, I think it will make the galaxy seem bigger because it will take a lot longer to explore it all....

I'm not talking about graphics. I couldn't care less about that. I grew up with cardboard counters. Blips like a radar screen would be fine by me...

I'm talking about a real search phase, where it takes many turns to cross the system and sensor range is less than one turn's movement range, so you have to find the enemy before you can fight them, and if he spreads out to search more ground the larger force risks being defeated in detail. This creates the opportunity for an operational situation like Juteland or Midway. That's what I want!...

I'm a fan of "the more systems the better." I like running my own territory, exploring new territory, and fighting long wars over the other races' territories.

Lots of systems. Strategic depth.

You must be in my age-range, Bill. I grew up on cardboard counters too.

[Barnacle Bill]

Artaud said:
I'm a fan of "the more systems the better." I like running my own territory, exploring new territory, and fighting long wars over the other races' territories.

Lots of systems. Strategic depth.

Agree 100%. Always modded SEIV to support 255 systems (254 in the early days when 255 caused issues), and set up my games to maximum on both "player" & "neutral" races (I'd love an SE-type game with a galaxy big enough for a number of races in the order of magnitude of countries in EU).

However, in a finite universe slower expansion speed => a prolonged experience.

Artaud said:
You must be in my age-range, Bill. I grew up on cardboard counters too.

Born 1959, first wargame AH's "Blitzkrieg" (bought at JC Penny's c. 1972), started playing "Stellar Conquest", SFB & "Starfire" (and imagining a game that combined the best aspects of them all) c. 1979. Bought my first computer c.1985 to play flight sims, but very soon discovered SSG's "Reach for the Stars" (the 8-bit version, which was essentially "Computer Stellar Conquest" - not the more modern release). Space 4Xers are my true love. Been playing SE since SEIII.