Problem Saving Games

[PvK]

This was so sad to read. If you restore to a save whenever you lose something you didn't want to lose, then you aren't playing the game. This is a game that is not designed to require you to do that. You're supposed to live with what happens, not say, "nope! ya missed me! I'm bending reality and trying again!"

It's sad for me to read that people can play many many games for years and never encounter a well-balanced game that isn't based around the "backsies" save game abuse "feature. Bleh.

PvK

solops said:

As a newcomer to the games I can only say that I am amazed and baffled. What is there to discuss? Its a simple and straightforward feature that is pretty much a standard convenience in PC games. Adding it should be simple and would save a lot of time for players. Players that are not PC literate are pretty much left abandoned.

[Potatoman]

I think you're mischaracterizing our motives for wanting a real save/load feature.

To illustrate, put yourself in the shoes of a person who has spent the last two hours fighting to enter land as EA R'leyh. Your morale 8 troops are completely unable to breach PD anywhere on the map, so you need to rely on summons. You've taken and pillaged several smaller provinces, but Maverni his beginning to dominate the land mass and you know that once that happens, you're history. Fortunately, you've just managed to reach lvl 9 alteration and have scraped together (via alchemizing all your gems to astral) enough pearls for one casting of Wish. You need somebody big, bad, and amphibious to Thug their way through the armies of Maverni.
You've heard somewhere on the forums that Doom Horrors are the toughest unit in the game- and toughest sounds pretty good. You wish for "Doom Horror". Next turn: the sum total of all your gems are gone, your pretender is dead, horror marked, and feebleminded. Your nation has no way to heal and it'll take you roughly 100 turns to empower another person up to the level needed for another casting. The game is now over because you did not know that wishing for that particular minion will not work- an unsatisfying way to cap off two hours of gaming by any estimation.

Loading when that kind of thing happens is not "save game abuse", it's a way to avoid having to throw an otherwise entertaining session away because of a fluke, bad decision, or honest mistake.

[Mortibus]

Why does losing a game "throw an otherwise entertaining session away?"

[Potatoman]

It's not losing, it's losing in such an arbitrary manner. If there was a button labeled "Fish" which, if clicked, quit and erased the game files it would be essentially the same thing.

[Mortibus]

Potatoman said:
It's not losing, it's losing in such an arbitrary manner. If there was a button labeled "Fish" which, if clicked, quit and erased the game files it would be essentially the same thing.

What? It's not losing, but it's losing? Fish button? Huh?

[solops]

Potatoman said:
To illustrate, put yourself in the shoes of a person who has spent the last two hours fighting to enter land as EA R'leyh. Your morale 8 troops are completely unable to breach PD anywhere on the map, so you need to rely on summons. You've taken and pillaged several smaller provinces, but Maverni his beginning to dominate the land mass and you know that once that happens, you're history. Fortunately, you've just managed to reach lvl 9 alteration and have scraped together (via alchemizing all your gems to astral) enough pearls for one casting of Wish. You need somebody big, bad, and amphibious to Thug their way through the armies of Maverni.
You've heard somewhere on the forums that Doom Horrors are the toughest unit in the game- and toughest sounds pretty good. You wish for "Doom Horror". Next turn: the sum total of all your gems are gone, your pretender is dead, horror marked, and feebleminded. Your nation has no way to heal and it'll take you roughly 100 turns to empower another person up to the level needed for another casting. The game is now over because you did not know that wishing for that particular minion will not work- an unsatisfying way to cap off two hours of gaming by any estimation.

Not to mention simply forgetting things because of a screaming child, not recognising the itty bitty people characters for what they are or, for that matter, remembering what they are or what they do or, worst of all, playing for 4 hours, have some nutty thing happen that ends the game for you and not being able to re-play it without going back for 4 hours.

I had no idea that not having a save and reload feature (like almost all other games do) was such a critical design component. What a shame. It detracts from my enjoyment and I suspect that, if widely known, would negatively impact potential buyers, helping keep this marvelous game in a niche rather than expanding its base to a much, much wider market.

I think that it is rediculous that a request for a simple and standard UI feature should generate such a voluminous debate about the philosophy of GAME playing.

Look Mr Developer Guys, just please give us a flexible save and reload in the UI and let people choose for themselves how they will enjoy the game.

[Frostmourne27]

My Opinion: Save functions are incredibly irritating. I am in the crowd that if it doesn't work, and I have a save game, odds are 3:1 that I will load the save and try untill it works. However, I don't think that protestations that it is including a cheat function into the game are really worth anything. I can cheat very easily without a save function. It looks like this:
#selectmonster "xxx"
#pathcost 5
#magicskill 0 10
#magicskill 1 10
etc etc etc

Mods/.map files (if that's what thy're called?) make it very easy to cheat, and, compared to save game function in a more drastic/game altering way. That said, I don't really think this is a priority, but that if we get a save function, there should be limits. Maybe one save file for each game? that would allow reload/try again irritation, but since decisions in Dom are usually delayed, and have an effect only later, it wouldn't allow outrageous try again stuff. OR you could keep the save like 10 turns in the past, which allows more undoing, but the computer might do other things instead, so foreknowledge is limited.

Why is this worth it? To me, games that allow unlimited saves, especially RPGs, are kind of stupid; if it's that easy to win, there is no value in winning. I don't enjoy cheating to win.

That said, games like Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights come with really elaborate consoles that let you do all sorts of fun things. (In Oblivion it was also needed to bypass the ten quadrillion bugs that showed up in the game) Things like leveling a character in NWN to allow play to begin halfway through a module are technically cheating, as is giving yourself just a touch more gold to make that uberspell to kill the archmage at second level. There are also types of cheating that are funny and somewhat interesting to try, but but that don't really help build a sense of the game actually being something. Those sorts of cheats are what make reloads usefull; you can do stupid/funny stuff and not suffer for it.

Regarding the doom horror example; I don't see the problem; it does warn you to be careful what you wish for, and it doesn't say that wishing for Doom Horrors is safe. Are you saying it should list every unit/thing that can be wished for and what happens if you wish for them/it? That takes all the fun out of experimenting with it. Besides which, I really doubt that your example situation is that bad. Marnerni isn't aquatic and computers aren't great at water conquest. Sure you've lost a bunch of gems, your god dies and loses one astral (you'd kill him off and call him back I hope), and Horrors may or may not hunt him down for the rest of his immortal life (If it's a strong Horror Mark, well, there's some debate about whether or not those are balanced) If that was a multiplayer game, well you aren't advocating a reload function in multiplayer are you? That's like saying: play with my mod that makes me superpowerfull or don't play with me at all!

A type of save/load function I would like to see is something that let TC/IP games be shut off by the host then resumed, so that the host computer doesn't need to be on for an eternity.

[Mortibus]

Well, I disagree, no harm in that, is there?

I find it refreshing to play a game that's different, one in which the usual save/load shuffle is no longer an issue.

Like you said, almost all other games have the save and reload feature. Some people don't like that. This game is for those people.

The save and reload fans have enough games already, don't you think?

[KissBlade]

Save and Reload can appease both types. If you're a stickler, then just don't use it. Simple as that. Unless you're saying you don't like it because you'll want to reload? That makes little sense to me actually. And to say "The save and reload fans have enough games already, don't you think?" just sounds a little off to me.

[Theonlystd]

Id like one cause when you get into 80,100 provinces empires its easy to forget to do something that gets you pwned.


I was rather baffled y it wasnt there. No one makes you use it. Cause some have a weak willpower not everyone else should be kept from using it.


And save and reload fans?!?!? LoL do poeple make fanclubs for this or something?. No one makes you save and reload. There arent save and reload games those are just options that come with those games.. Games arent designed and sold on the premise of save and reload. You wont see them advertising that feature on the box