Conceptual Balance (Discussion)

[Cainehill]

dirtywick said:
Aging with Abysia MA isn't really that huge of a problem IMO. First thing is they can forge Boots of Youth, but not for a while, so mid/late game age can be a non-issue for Abysia but not most other nations. Second thing is if you're going to play them you should be blood hunting, and with blood nations you'd usually take Growth anyway which makes a noticable impact in age afflictions, although you're still going to be seeing mages die.

The problem is that _ALL_ the mages you'd want to use to research towards those Boots of Youth are going to be getting diseased and dying of old age before you get them, making it rather difficult to get the research done - and you have to focus insanely on Construction, whereas Abysia usually wants Evocation and Blood.

Then, all those mages who are dying, you have to choose between research, and blood hunting. And then use your hard-earned blood slaves to save your mages, when even the petty mages need protection.

[curtadams]

Boots of Youth is not a fix for aging. Research is twice as difficult, sages are almost impossible to find (in 4 SP games I've seen one library), and most independent researchers require a lab and temple. With your good researchers old (and therefore not acceptable as researchers) you have to research with low-end researchers. It takes *forever* to get to Con 6 - 1040 research points with 4 point researchers is like bailing a bathtub with a teaspoon. It takes even longer if you want to have your mages *do* anything in the first 25 turns or so, because some have to come off the research line to, well, do something, and because you need to research whatever they're going to cast. My SP games are basically won by the time I get Con 6, and in MP, players will often be dead before that kind of stuff starts showing up.

[dirtywick]

Cainehill said:

The problem is that _ALL_ the mages you'd want to use to research towards those Boots of Youth are going to be getting diseased and dying of old age before you get them, making it rather difficult to get the research done - and you have to focus insanely on Construction, whereas Abysia usually wants Evocation and Blood.

Then, all those mages who are dying, you have to choose between research, and blood hunting. And then use your hard-earned blood slaves to save your mages, when even the petty mages need protection.

Your blood mages can cast Rejuvenation too from the Blood school which is a temporary fix. Not that finding sages is going to be a huge help anyway, as they too have old age.

If you need a research boost to get there you can also take the Magic 1 or 3 scale and use Demonbreds who don't have to worry about old age at all realistically as they have like 200 years before they hit old age.

Abysia actually has more tools available to deal with old age than most nations do. I think the only thing old age does with Abysia is pigeonholes it into take an imprisoned pretender so you can get good scales; you basically need Order, Productivity, Growth, and probably Magic to be successful.

[Morkilus]

I would be extremely disappointed if Abysian mages were modded "younger". I realize losing mages is frustrating for players who try to make every gold piece and every blood slave count, but Abysia is hardly broken with old mages. Just because you can't play a nation the same as you used to doesn't mean that it's broken.

[dirtywick]

Morkilus said:
I would be extremely disappointed if Abysian mages were modded "younger". I realize losing mages is frustrating for players who try to make every gold piece and every blood slave count, but Abysia is hardly broken with old mages. Just because you can't play a nation the same as you used to doesn't mean that it's broken.

I think a better solution would be to move either the Boots of Youth or Rejuvenation further down their trees, so that way old age prevention is across the board rather than for just Abysia.

[Graeme Dice]

Morkilus said:
I would be extremely disappointed if Abysian mages were modded "younger".

Abysia suffers greatly from being one of the few nations to have multiple capital only mages, while at the same time having most of those mages suffer from old age. They can get around this, but would benefit greatly if warlock apprentices were available at any fortress with a lab. Then they wouldn't have to sacrifice as much research potential just to get a blood economy going.

[Graeme Dice]

Frostmourne27 said:
Similarly, Eagle Kings. What is with the earth magic? unless it's free, why would you EVER want to have it? Air 4 is good enough thank you.

The benefit of E1 is that it gives them the ability to cast ironskin so that spells like rain of stones won't wipe them out.

[upstreamedge]

B0rsuk said:
I wish Luck scale slightly increased chance of getting random path. It would be both climatic and useful. Dom2 luck scale had repotation of being only midly useful.

I do not think that is a good idea, I think luck is already to powerful of a scale. I do kind of like your idea though, and I think that it should be tied to the magic scale (which is lame)

Another thing I would like to see is ME Tien'Chi's conscription bonus for order territories be beter. I think it should give additional PD every season or year.

[KissBlade]

upstreamedge said:

I do not think that is a good idea, I think luck is already to powerful of a scale. I do kind of like your idea though, and I think that it should be tied to the magic scale (which is lame)

Another thing I would like to see is ME Tien'Chi's conscription bonus for order territories be beter. I think it should give additional PD every season or year.

... I think that's the first time I've heard the positive luck scale described that way ...

[FrankTrollman]

... I think that's the first time I've heard the positive luck scale described that way ...

And yet in Dominions 3 it's not an uncommon assessment.
Growth and Luck have real proponents in Dom 3. It's a whole new world.

-Frank