The problem of low hit points on humans

[Epaminondas]

I am sure this issue has been thrashed about here, so forgive me if I am reviving a tired topic. Nonetheless, it is extremely frustrating for me to play Arco or Marveni in the Demo, as it was extremely frustrating for me to play human nations in Dom II due to the extremely low hit points of their commanders. And after seeing my super-kitted Arco hero Pathos getting one-shotted by a Mind Blast (and he had like 24 MR due to the MR trinket, Solaris Helm, and the MR increasing battlefield spell), I've had it.

The fundamental problem is this: the hit points for the human commander are so low (usually 10-15) that he is constantly menaced by the possibility of getting one-shotted--even by low quality units--and this makes the possibility of turning him into thug a problematic endeavor, to put it charitably. Absent turning him into a prophet or acquiring hit points increasing heroic skills such as Toughness or Unequaled Obesity (I believe these two are the only ones), a human commander will typically have less than 15 hit points. Compared to the durability of a Niefel Jarl or a Basalt King or a Dai Oni, you can see there is a serious imbalance.

Now, I understand that it is unrealistic for humans to approach the hit points of these giant-sized creatures; and that is not what I am asking. But surely, there is a way to slightly increase human commander hit points across the board so that the one-shot phenomenon unique it can be mitigated? It seems to make sense both gameplay-wise and context wise, given Dom III's fantasy-like setting. (Yes, Dom III is not an RPG, but it has an RPG element, and the current system where the commanders/heroes are only some 10-30 percent stronger than the base units that they are modeled on seems a bit out of whack.)

So I think a reasonable solution would be to double the base hit points of the human commanders; say, if an average human soldier has 10 hit points, why not 20 hit points for a human commander? In conjunction with something like 1 hit-point or 2 hit-point increase per experience level, this would enable a fairly experienced human commander to approach 25-30 hit points, which seems more reasonable.

Would this unbalance the game? I don't think so, if the human commanders would cost slightly more. While this may concededly be a serious adjustment in the game mechanics, I do not think it would unbalance the game in a way that would require other serious adjustments. Am I off on this? Or is this simply a dead horse topic?

[Patriot]

I understand the frustration, but in the end, I believe that commanders are valued because of their leadership and should not be cradeled like a baby. Like a common soldier, they are replacable. Sub-commanders are placed in armies in case, your prophetized rare-item ridden leader of God gets obliterated with one spell.

Maybe it's a mistake to nurture a low hp commander as a SC. I've never played a game where I rely on one powerful soldier, so I'm pretty stupid on that subject. I went off topic.

I think that humans are average and thus 10hp is average. Raise human commander hp to 20 and Niefel Jarls and Basalt King should have hps in the realm of Pretender Gods. Personally, I wouldn't care if the game was patched to raise human hp though. Still I'm leaning to thinking that it's fine the way it is.

[Ighalli]

I think humans surviving a sword through the gut or being enveloped in a blast of fire is against the flavor of dominions. Personally, I like the fact that commander HP are done the same as soldier HP; it makes for a more gritty ("realistic" maybe?) fantasy world. If you don't like it, at least you can write a mod and increase the HP of the commanders you use.

[alexti]

I feel that human commander's HP are just fine. It seems normal that a single lightning bolt, or a hit by a giant, or even a well aimed arrow can kill them. They're pretty cheap and easily replaceable (it's good idea to have few spare commanders in your army). They're commanders because of their leadership skills, not because they're superhumans. Though they usually pretty good fighters and can often defeat 2 regular human soldiers.

And even Niefel Jarl can be wiped out in pretty much one shot. Ok, paralyze may not kill him outright, but routing work by a few soliders will finish him in that state.

I don't think it's a good idea to put too much equipment on those humans - they die quite easily. I'd usually put some cheap shield and armor so that they can survive stray arrows and, appropriate cheap magic booster when necessary. Of course, the end game is another story and you have to equip all your battlemages (armor and at least fire and cold resistance).

[Endoperez]

Human mages would still be recruited over human commanders, independent commanders would still be the most often recruited type to lead units, and only human sacred/otherwise elite melee commanders would really benefit from this (they MIGHT have a minor use with the change)... except that the best of the best humans already have increased hitpoints. Paladin - 15 hp. Black Lord - 17 hp. Lord Warden of Man - 20 hp (although that's from a magical enchantment, LW of Chelms has "only" 14 hp.)
Some of that seems to be 2 bonus hp that heavy cavalry seem to have. Daimyos of Jomon only have 11 hp, but lesser Hatamotos have 12, so I quess Daimyos are meant to have 13. Hoplite Commander has 13 hp, Agema Commander has 15 hp, etc.

[B0rsuk]

I think the thread starter's frustration comes from three reasons:

- he insists on entering the SC game
- he insists on making SC's out of humans
- he insists on playing a nation that doesn't fit his playing style. I could suggest playing Ulm, it has more HPs by default. By the way, I think sending Pathos to front line is misusing him - he has a strong Standard ability for a reason. Send the minotaur hero into battle, he can't really do anything else. 20+ hp and 16 base protection seems what you're looking for.

Personally I'm fine with the way humans are in Dominions. Dominions is the first game I see in a long time that doesn't pretend humans are demigods. Players are used to games where it takes like 20 sword hits to kill a human. (Warcraft3 ....)
Please notice that commanders in Dominions are called commanders, and not heroes. This is because, well, they're not heroes. You have to work hard to become a hero. Dominions has a mechanic for this called Heroic Ability.

[Hullu]

Which reminds me of...

Would be nice if the heroic abilities made sense. It's annoying to get valor or quickness for a mage. When your SC-non-caster gets some semi-useless reinvigoration(not useless, but I'd prefer quickness or somesuch):/

In my last singleplayer game I actually waited to get a melee guy with quickness before I made anyone a prophet. Combined with imprisoned pretender I played my first 30 turns without propher or a pretender

[Forrest]

Hit points are not jack.

In my last game a 300+ Hp pretender jumped into a little slot between my blessed Wardens and my H inf all backed by longbows with aim. The fact it took 3 rounds to kill him is a tribute to the +95 hp for domain that he had.

This is a army game. Commanders die like flies no matter how many hit points. If he survives a few front line conflicts he'll be damaged or marked.

[Twan]

I think a difference should be made between normal humans and surhuman heroes. It's a shame to see most warrior type heroes useless except as normal leaders, they need more than 20hp to have an use as heroic warriors (I would even say 25-30 hp + recup or regen, as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells, luck is an option but too random and easy to have with gear, 50% all resist is another-) . Anything that have high chances to be one-shoted by a fireball or a level 3 summon is not a med-fan heroic warrior. Anyway, normal, recruitable, humans are not supposed to be exceptionnal warriors, and I find normal to see them having less than 20 hp.

[thejeff]

Agreed. I don't have a problem with most of the non-mage human commanders being fragile. They're there to lead troops.

It's the human melee heroes that are a problem. They should be special and it seems worthless to just use them like indy commanders. Since Hall of Fame heroes can get hp increasing abilities, it doesn't seem out of line to boost some of the national heroes hp.

There are a few recruitable types (Paladins & Black Lords were mentioned) that don't seem to have any real purpose other than to be thugs, but they're really too fragile for that. Does anyone actually use them?

I'd also suggested, in another thread, an item that would add 10-15 hp. Enough to really help out the human thugs, but little enough to not be worth it on real SCs.

And Forrest, if that pretender had been kitted out as an SC he would have ignored the longbows and your Heavy Infantry. The blessed Wardens might have done some damage, depending. Hps are just a buffer to ward against lucky shots and to give time for life drain & regen to work.