Dien Bien Phu, Hell in a very small place...

[Palle]

The "old" SPWaW game had a Dien Bien Phu scenario, not a very good one I am sorry to say, but with some tweaking it was ok. Has anyone, to your knowledge, done anything concerning Dien Bien Phu for SPMBT?
Any other campaigns from Indochine, Para especially? Cao Bang, Disaster at RC4, Operation Tulipe, RC6, Operation Marion (Lorraine), Na San, Operation Hirondelle, etc., etc.... and most of all of course, an accurate Dien Bien Phu scenario.

Would be sooo nice. The French Indochina War and Algerian War is too often overlooked by military historians. Certain large end influential members of NATO could probably have done well to study the Algerian one before they invaded a certain Mideastern country. But then of course, the officers did, it was the politicians who did not

Best regards, Palle www.ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk

[Palle]

And I did check http://www.wargamer.com/gamesdepot/search_game.asp

Best Regards, Palle

[Warhero]

Hmm some Indochina War campaign could be nice (from beginning to end)...

Great that you mentioned Algeria too. I remember that Wild Bill made Algerian campaign long time ago for SP3... Hey, if WB see this, how about remaking this for WinMBT?

PS. And that great Six Day War campaign too... Please?

[wulfir]

Palle,

there are a few scenarios by C.B. Blackard based on Bernad Fall's Street without Joy. And one focused on GM100. Don't know of any Dien Bien Phu or Algerian ones..., Dien Bien Phu would probably need a lot more than one scenario to depict.

[Palle]

Ah yes, bad wording, I meant campaign, not scenario.

I know the Street without joy ones, they give a good picture of the grittyness and attrittion of Indochine (The French lost more troops here than the US did in WW II if I recall correctly). But there seem to be no campaigns dealing with the momentous and decisive battles of that war. And I must also admit to a certain weakness for the French Paras of that period (French decolonisation). Those last heroic defenders of a lost empire fighting to maintain a bygone age while their homeland turned its back on them...

Problem with Algeria in SPMBT is that even during the rebellion it is treated as a nation, you suddenly send your Paras and Legionaires against heavy artillery, aa guns and tanks. So the "Generate Campaign" does not work.

I know enough of Dien Bien Phu that I could do it, if only I knew anything of the making of scenarios to put in the campaign.
The two variants I would like would be:
-Strictly Historical, both sides get what they had exactly (or as close as can be managed with our somewhat inexact knowledge of the exact positions of barbed wire etc.).
-Alternative, both sides get points to buy what they want. Consider for example how it would have gone had the North Africans (who broke under the stress of the siege), been exchanged with legionaires. The Viets were also building other divisions than infantry at the time and could have tried a few batallions of these, etc., etc..

BTW, I recommend Jean Larteguy's novels for giving an accurate picture of the Paras from Indochine to Algerie, they summ up what hundreds of hours of scholarly work has taught me in a much easier digested form.

[wulfir]

With the possible exception of Dien Bien Phu, I would imagine sources are somewhat scarce - unless you live in France/speak French...

Campaign building is a major undertaking - I'd be happy to help you out with the design part if you wish to give it a go. Afraid I don't know all that much about Indochine or Algeria - but I have some experience with the editor.

Alternatively, I can buy and deploy the enemy forces for you - no tanks and heavy arty then..., - you will need to learn a bit about how to insert scenarios into a user campaign, though this is a piece of cake.

[loktarr]

Palle said:
And I must also admit to a certain weakness for the French Paras of that period (French decolonisation). Those last heroic defenders of a lost empire fighting to maintain a bygone age while their homeland turned its back on them...

You seem to be well informed but if you want to design some campain, don't forget the great difference between Algeria and Indochina.
In a french point of view Indochina was a colony and Algeria a France territory.
This had a militar impact because only professionals were allowed (by french law) to be send in Indochina (Para + Legion...); in Algeria the were also draftee units.
Just in case you forgot about it

Something more interresting: I remember in the US Army website a text from an US officier comparing Algeria and Ireland: he said that Algeria was a militar victory but a political defeat and that Ireland (for England) was a militar defeat but a political victory. Maybe it's still in some archive... It finished with some analysis of what was going on in Irak.

Cheers,
Loktarr

[Palle]

Hi Loktar, you are right indeed. France are generally smart enough not to send 19 year old conscripts to die in some gritty guerrila overseas. There were more units than para and legion in Indochina though.

-Local units in French service, varying in quality from some quite good to quite bad.

-North African regiments, the French army, like other colonial powers, had no qualm about employing full regiments of natives from colonies to fight their wars. Many soldiers fighting for the Free French in WW II and Indochina were Marrocans or Algerians and were in general considered excellent, as were the Senegaleese artillerymen. At Dien Bien Phu, however, the North Africans broke under the strain of siege and became the "Rats of Nam Yun", the thousands of deserters hiding in caves along the banks of the Nam Yun River (I may have the River name wrong) and straining the logistics system further by stealing provisions. Bigeard was later to say that had he had 12.000 Waffen SS troops there instead of the motley garrision they had, he would have held it. I personally suspect he was right in that, the effective fighting force of 5- 6000 Legionnaires and Paras almost held. Though at terrible costs.

-Various local allied units. Generally bad quality, which was not made better by the fact that their leaders were puppets mostly, or played both sides.


In Algeria the Quadrillage system saw local units, conscripts, etc. in garrision around the country and reinforced/relieved by Legionnaires and Paras when there was fighting to be done. So the *fighting* units were the same, except that the Colonial Regiments from the past no longer existed at that stage, as most colonies contributing had been granted some form of independance.

Palle

[loktarr]

You seem to know a lot about this, so no risk you made any error in your possible campain
Bigeard had not 12.000 Waffen-SS but there where lot of them in the legion. I remeber reading a book from a french partisan: During the war he was deported. After the war he entered the legion as a team leader: his team was 50% german, all former waffen-SS !

[Palle]

There are always errors;-) (I have a Master's Degree in history, so I know that I know but a fraction of what there is to know *g*), but I think I could get close to accuracy.

Problem is being a professional makes you too throughough (sp?);-) takes too much time.