Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[lch]

Kuritza said:
They lack an unkillable multipurpose unit, which is my main concern.

Have you been fighting massed Shadow Vestals before, per chance? Ethereal sacred units with very high base defense. Glamor/Mirror Image goes away after a scratch, the Etherealness stays the whole battle. And don't tell me that you can hope to get rid of them by priests. The Ermorian Principes have an insane base defense, too. Ermor might not be as "unbalanced" as the Heims in the very early game, but undeads isn't everything that they have. In any case, you'll need to develop a counter-strategy to almost any nation and playing stlye, if you like it or not.

Kuritza said:
Btw, F9W9 blessing isnt the only way - I have seen W9E9 blessing, and it seems like a great idea.

Earth/Nature is a good combo, too, try it with Niefelheim, E9N4 or E9N6 for example. You'll be amazed at the results.

[Kuritza]

Lightning bolt kills a vestal. It doesnt kill van.
Try scratching a van with defense 26, my troops have yet to manage such feat.
I like developing an anti-strategy in each of my games, I dont like the fact I cannot develop an anti-strategy against vanheim raiders. The only thing may or may not work is an immediate rush for their capitol after I've massed enough mages/SCs/thugs and got sufficient research.
P.S. there are many good combos, but w9 is a must for Vanheim imho, it skyrockets their already insane defense.

[PDF]

We're beating a dead horse IMHO.
The combo of 20 def+glamour+fast+sacred+low res cost for a paltry 75 gold is a magnet for a high level bless (F9W9+)leading to a very unbalanced nation.
I've yet to find a way of countering Vanheim or Helheim before turn 25+ (if still alive). Last try was Arco vs Vanheim MA (F9W9N4), I get stomped and neither Elephants nor groups of astral mages scripted to Mind Burn and Paralyze had even marginal efficiency (considering battles opposing somewhat equal cost of troops).
Maybe Fire magic is more effective but I'm don't think it's enough before level 5.
When playing Vanheim the hardest fight I've had was against Machakan big sacred Black Hunters spiders (which had a F9N4 bless). But even then I beat them because they are much harder to produce en masse so they were overwhelmed (I had 80-some vans vs 30-35 spiders, because spiders cost 66% gold and 200% res MORE than a Van).
Worst thing is that when you lose you don't even have survivors as the ultra fast Vans wreak havoc in the rear...

[CharonJr]

Hmm, I have only played this vs. the AI, but could a heavy bless Mictlan (F9W9B4) pose some problems to Van in EA even in MP ?

Lots of small units with 2-3 attacks plus some devils for heat auras ?

IIRC those Vans just had a W4 or W6 bless, so W9 might have had a different result, but the Mictlan swarm might be able to overcome this higher bless, too.

CharonJr

[Kuritza]

Mictlan poses problem to anyone.
But think of it - to kill vans with lots of small units and devils, you must catch them first. They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw). Also, vanheim can wreak havoc amongst your jaguar warriors with bladewind and wind guided indie archers. What can your mages do against the van sacreds?
P.S.
To think of it, as Mictlan you have these2xblessed bats, it may be too much for the Van. Not in MA though, when blood magic is banned by Lawgiver.)

[Meglobob]

Kuritza said:
They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw).

I did this as MA Ermor with stealth shadow vestals against MA Mictlan, I had loads of lvl 1N druids, leading 15 shadow vestals stealthy raiding. The druids would bless the vestals with S9W9A4 bless.

However, MA Mictlan with is W9F9S9 blessed jaguar warriors simply created a load of 40 strong armies that countered my stealthy vestals. As soon as I took 1 he took it back. MA Mictlan also had enough troops left over to mount an offensive against me.

So why not do the same against stealthy vans? To every attacking strategy there is usually a counter strategy, the only problem is you have not thought about it yet.

[CharonJr]

Yup, stealth is a problem and Mictlan's PD is bad

Yup, Eaglewarriors ftw and later the summoned flying jaguars - Ozelots (sp?) - with some scared summons (bats and regular jaguars) till you get to them.

3 attacks with a F9 bless should be enough to hit even W9 Van's at least once and get rid of their glamor. Maybe I will try a little hotseat game vs myself later on and see if it works. But considering the cheap Mictlan sacreds I would put my money with them atm.

It might come down to Van raiding Mictlan's provinces while Mictlan stomps throught Van's provinces.

IMO Mictlan would win this one but due to the raiding would have fallen way behind in MP.

CharonJr

[CharonJr]

Yup, personally I have yet to see any setup/nation that can not be countered by a certain strategy, but as many others before me did, I will agree that the ###heim nations tend to have certain advantages.

Niefel with a N10E9 bless is pretty bad, too (70hp, 14hp regen, 20prot berserkers with cold aura IIRC). But due to their small numbers the mentioned above Mictaln swarm works against them or spells like soul slay, desintegrate or similar spells.

Basically I am more inclined to think that high dual/tripple bless strategies are too powerful since not all nations can use those effectively and most games are too short to make up for the early game advantage (which should often translate into a late game advantage as well) by having good scales.

CharonJr

[lch]

Kuritza said:What can your mages do against the van sacreds?

Agony, Bloodletting. Both kill the mirror image instantly. Blood Boil, kills one Van/Hel unit instantly, so it's a great spell to spam cast. Since Vans/Hels are capital only and expensive, your enemy will have trouble to replace the lost sacreds. Fireballs are extremely useful against glamor squads, too, since they can catch fire and pass on fire damage to the surrounding units. Vans/Hels are just as vulnerable to magic as any other unit.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, Mictlan is particularly vulnerable to raiding because of the spread out blood hunters. If you can only effectively blood hunt in provinces you've got either a castle or a permanent army stationed, it slows down your blood economy A LOT. I have yet to actually go up against a Van/Helhiem nation on MP (mostly because I focus extra hard on diplomacy with them), but it seems like moderate to heavy raiding would seriously impair non-MA Mictlan.