OOB 06 France - Mech

[loktarr]

Some points about the new french VBCI:

- missing versions:
As far as I know, they are not yet in service, but will be before 2015, which is the limit year for the end of all VBCI deliveries

VBCI VCI: already in-game

VBCI "Rang Eryx": missing, in service before 2015

VBCI VPC: missing, command vehicle, in service very soon, if not already; command vehicle for mech and armored (Leclerc) regiments; armament: only a 12,7 mm machine gun

VBCI "Rang mortier": missing, with a 81mm mortar, before 2015

VBCI ???: long range AT version, missile unknown after the end of trigan/AC3G-MP missile. Waiting that french army chooses a new missile to replace the Milan 3.

- armor: the armor of the VBCI is sayed to be class 5, which mean resistant to 14,5mm and whith restrictions 20/25mm. The in-game armor seems a bit weak for a class 5, and its the same than the AMX-10 one or the Stryker. In fact, even it is a wheeled VCI, it weights 26T, when AMX-10 is 10/14T and Stryker 16/18T. Seems to me that more than 10T more should appear a bit more in armor, but I maybe wrong: I have a doubt about the Combat/Empty weight of the vehicles above...

Hope that could help, but I won't cry if you think, there is no reason to do such improvement, with so few precise datas...

Sources:
- Wheight:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/amx/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/vbci/specs.html
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...ker/specs.html

-Armor/Versions/Armament:
http://www.pes-edition.com/fantassin...SSIN_16/11.pdf
in french:
http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/vbci.htm

[loktarr]

I forgot to say that VBCI is unit 096

[DRG]

The patch is just about done and I'm not adding things like this now. There will be plenty of time between now and 2015 to do that

Don

[loktarr]

Right

[loktarr]

Comparison with other IFV, like Warrior (24T) or CV90 (26T) let me think that the level of protection of the VBCI has really been underestimated. Only the Marder (33T), the Bradley (30T) and the future Puma (31T up to 43T) among those I saw where of greater weight.
Loktarr

[DRG]

OK, when you come up with some hard data for me to look at, I will look at it.

It's a LAV like vehicle and has a higher armour rating than the US Stryker in the game. Everyone wants their nations toys to be better. My job is to keep it under control and WHY are you comparing a wheeled IFV with tracked APC's ????

Don

[loktarr]

DRG said:
1)WHY are you comparing a wheeled IFV with tracked APC's ????
2)OK, when you come up with some hard data for me to look at, I will look at it.
Don

1)I agree with you that I don't have any "hard data" and that "everybody wants it's country toy to be better". But I never stated that I was sure about anything I said.
OK, comparing APCs and IFVs is not easy because they are different but I was just making some comparisons, that for me aren't stupid, because IFVs or APCs have a weight that depends mainly on their armor (i.e the amount of steel in it). Futher, VBCI is not an IFV but an AIFV*. That being said, it seems to me that a 14T AMX-10 should have less armor than a 26T VBCI. Maybe this difference is due to the turret? But if I'm not wrong the Drakkar turret is also on some AMX-10s; size and differences betwenn APCs and IFV could explain this, but 10T is a lot.

A better comparison could be the Piranha/LAV familly, 8x8 like the VBCI, 10 to 14T again. (as a reminder VBCI is 26 to 28T which is at least a x2)

*AIFV -> sources: NATO www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/other_pubs/aap_15.pdf
Not the same as IFV, which is VCI in french

2) Now, some datas, that certainly are not "hard", because none are when it's about military:
- VBCI is said by GIAT/NEXTER his builder to be certified OTAN STANAG 4569 Level 5
which means it resists 25mm APDS-TM-791 or TLB 073,Distance 500m, Velocity 1258 m/s, -> in game more than 6, that doesn't withstand it, even at 1000m.
(In game 25mm are from 8 to 11 afpds pen, with a 2 warhead).
Sources: Nexter + http://www.generalarmour.com/pagesGA...htm#stanag4569
- VBCI is said by the french ministry of defence (its buyer) to withstand 14,5mm and 25mm bullets (again!) and with added armor RPGs, and his gun is said to penetrate 8,5 mm steel at a range of 1000m.
Source:
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/v...t_d_infanterie

Like you, I seriously doubt all of this...

Having no more evidence I don't ask you to change any value. And as I said in my first post, in order to avoid this post to be like it finally is, it isn't a big problem for me. My two posts about MBT-LAWs and VBCI were only some observations I made after some play against France and Germany.
Thank you for your answers
Respectfully
Loktarr

PS: I made a mistake in my first post: VBCI Eryx is already there, under the "VBC Eryx" name, starting in 2010. Sorry for that.

[loktarr]

As anybody the current formulas for penetration? I post here in order not to add a new thread.

[RecruitMonty]

"thickness in cm/cosine of the angle of slope from the vertical

example using T-34 glacis

4.5cm/0.5 = 9cm"

[loktarr]

Thank you RecruitMonty but in fact I was asking for in-game formulas , sorry if it wasn't clear.