Dud units / monsters / summons

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

I do think we agree on most areas, and I don't see any reason why the balance of SP and MP need conflict. This thread has actually turned out a lot better than I expected as far as bringing up useful balance discussions. CB is built on input, there hasn't been a lot of it for Dom3 yet, but that's largely because people have still been exploring the base game.

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:


Well if it's just about degrees of disadvantage, you might say that you should never use anything that isn't the hands down best unit or nation in the game. But people want to, both for variety and because the use of different units and nations changes depending on the situation you're in. I mean there are times when unit A, though generally worse than unit B, will be a better choice. What I want to 'fix' is unit C, which has a clear purpose (it's got AP weapons, good mapmove, fire resistance or some other ability which fits into rock paper scissors balance) but still sucks. While I'm at it I figure unit D, which is just a worse version of another unit, could do with either being given a new ability or at least made to be roughly average so it doesn't punish the AI which seems to build at random, or the player who wants to use it for flavour's sake.

That is pretty much the philosophy of CB. The problem is the rather extreme numbers of type Ds, especially among recruitable troops. It can be extremely difficult to find thematic, balanced, and different solutions for the legions of them.

[Sombre]

Cool. If CB is still a work in progress then I'm happy to stick with that and work on CBM versions of mod nations.

I just noticed I managed to seriously mess up the quoting up there. I'll fix that.

By the way I tested the little Bakemono at size 1 and they look just as good in battle if not better. I really think they should be size 1.

[Juzza]

HoneyBadger said:
Again, it's completely besides the point that they're a powerful unit, as I said. The point is that they're a dud, a dead end. They're fine for a few things, but they're expensive, limited, and pretty much the only game in town. Why waste money on them? If you've got a good bless, recruit Jarls.

I totaly disagree these troops are exteremly useful for what their worth, when I play Nefilhiem I usaly rely on the nefil soldiers and unfronzen to do all my battles, they are however only desined to fight in cold provinces, they gain +1 to attack, Defence Strength and + even more protection for every cold in value in the province and their with that much cold in a province it makes your enermies encoumbered terribly, +3 for an average human, and then you add their chill to the equation and they are so fatigued that they practicaly lay down and die to a few nefil soldiers, and of core you only need a few of them maybe, five in a large army of other giants and they make a huge impact and if your still not convinced by that, actauly try a few stragies yourself and tell me how they keep to fail your expectations.

[Dedas]

I completely agree with Juzza.

Also I never use the low attack ambidex axemen by themselves as some people seems to, because if you do they won't hit a thing. Instead I let the enemy fight themselves tired first with a small group of shield maidens whom are excellent at this. These troops will hardly kill anything armored with their low strength and their short sword, but they got excellent defense and wield a shield. After a some rounds I throw in the axes, and as the shield maidens now built up some fatigue on the enemy (10 = -1 to defense) my axemen will have a field day. As a bonus the shield maidens will rarely get hit by the throwing axes.
This tactic works quite well against high protection, high defense troops such as knights of this early age.

[PvK]

Er. I'm just gonna say it. I see an awful lot of people saying an awful lot of units are useless or pointless or hopeless or should be removed, and frankly, these comments are mostly showing that the posters just haven't thought of what these units are good for.

Remove the scout from Marignon because they have a (cough, much more expensive, and far less diplomatic) spy? No!

Pale Ones useless and horrible because they have one eye and therefore base attack skill of 8? Uh, fine, meanwhile they let you cheaply conquer the oceans and multiply your income, etc.

Flagellants useless? Remember that discussion about how ME Ulm is horrid because they have Morale 10... No, think again.

Ahem.

[Sombre]

I don't see people saying 'dud' units should be removed - rather that they should be improved so they aren't useless. The claim that people just haven't found what the units are good for strikes me as pretty daft. There are several units and spells in dom3 that are simply bad.

True I said I thought the flaggies were awful, but admitted I hadn't given them much testing. It's possible that when I used them they were particularly unlucky with their afflictions (crippled, lost an arm or diseased if I remember correctly). I know they were garbage when I used them, which is why I brought them up in the thread. People have disagreed with me and I have changed my position - if many people find them useful I clearly need to give them another go. Which would be the point of this whole thread.

As for the scout / spy for marignon, it's not like I'm dead set against marignon having a scout. I just see it as somewhat weird that they'd need one when they have spies. Obviously it's going to weaken the nation by a whopping 0.0000005% not being able to build those scouts, but I think I could live with that. And /much more/ expensive?

As for Pale Ones I belive the main objection was that they turn up in Agartha PD where they are useless and are unthematically slaughtered in droves. They also make poor fighters underwater or not.

I think you need to cut down on your hyperbole a little. If you disagree you can do it in a constructive non snarky non eyerolling way.

[Methel]

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

They're flaggelants, they hurt themselves for religious purification/proof of faith/penance/whatever. Seems logic that a good bit of them cant fight as well as unhurt soldiers.

[Sombre]

I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.

[vfb]

Sombre said:
I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.

They got infected and were forced to amputate .