Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Xietor]

Does anyone else think that giving pikemen a 1st strike, high attack against mounted units would help balance the vans somewhat.

The 1st strike of the pike against mounted units has been used in other strategy games, and is sound realistically. A charging unit into a long pike IS going to take some damage most of the time.

Thus the pike gets a very high attack bonus and 1st strike(only against mounted units). I also think the defense of the mounted unit should be lowered against the pike because the pike is going to hit the horse not the rider.

It is just hard to see the 1st wave of calvary charging into a row of pikes and avoiding injury. Several horses would be severely injured.

And I guess not just pikes, but long spears would also achieve the same result. Maybe any sharp weapon of length 4 or 5?

[HoneyBadger]

EA Tien Chi beats Helheim easily, with it's pikes and chariots eliminating the glamour pretty easily, and the warriors of the 5 elements destroying it's special troops. Add in Chi's other troops, like their decent archers and heavy glaive-users, and it's a slaughter.

I've done it consistently over quite a few games.

As far as weakening Hel/Van instead of strengthening other nations-well, the ones that need strengthened are weak to begin with, and not just against Hel/Van.

I'm not saying boost Caelum, Niefel, T'C, Lanka, etc. I'm talking nations that have a hell of a time beating Helheim OR Niefel OR Caelum OR T'C, like EA R'lyeh for instance.
Sure, it's easy to weaken Hel/Van-a lot easier than it is to strengthen half a dozen nations-but EASY isn't always BEST, and Hel/Van are good nations, they're internally balanced, and they work for a lot of different styles of play.

You may have an easier time of cutting the legs out from under Hel/Van than lifting up and fixing up the least competitive nations in the game-and you certainly can tell yourself that you're doing the least amount of so-called "damage" to the 'holy internal balance' of the game, but the end result will be a game which isn't as fun to play-and that's the bottom line, fun. It's more trouble to fix a nation, but it's also a really good opportunity to make that nation more FUN to PLAY.

Plus, if done really well, it should firm up the overall balance of nations in the game.

And those things makes the game overall better, rather than worse.

[B0rsuk]

Is this just me, or Vanheim/Helheim has very heavy infantry by Early Era standards ? Not only that, but the infantry is stealthy, has high defence and magic resistance ?
They're perhaps ok for middle era, but compared to other Early units they're like soviet tanks.

I can't completely verify it now because I've never been a big fan of *heims and I don't feel like creating new game just sto check....

[Meglobob]

HoneyBadger said:EA Tien Chi beats Helheim easily, with it's pikes and chariots eliminating the glamour pretty easily, and the warriors of the 5 elements destroying it's special troops. Add in Chi's other troops, like their decent archers and heavy glaive-users, and it's a slaughter.

Is this SP or MP? Bet its SP...won't work in MP.

[Velusion]

Meglobob said:

Is this SP or MP? Bet its SP...won't work in MP.

I can't imagine it being in MP either.

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, ofcourse SP. The way I figure it, if a person can wring the most out of a nation, then it doesn't mean that nation is unbalanced, it just means people know how to use it and can win with it. So, I'm only interested because Helheim and Vanheim are unbalanced for SP. Who cares about MP?

Most MP games-if they're smart-won't even let you play as Helheim/Vanheim.

You can beat them with Tien Chi pretty easily in SP though. Maybe MP too, maybe not, but who cares?

[Shovah32]

If heavily blessed helhirdlings get the charge nothing EA Tien Chi can throw up until late game(apart from maybe a very strong SC God like an E9 cyclops) will stop them.

[HoneyBadger]

I've never had a problem stopping them. Not only was I able to take out their armies, I was able to hold on to land, and eventually surround and crush them, without a hitch and in a very mannerly fashion. The secret was using mixed armies of something like 10 to 1 odds against them, having a good bless of my own,, building plenty of castles with loads of PD, and being every bit as aggro as they are.

[vfb]

HoneyBadger said:
I've never had a problem stopping them. Not only was I able to take out their armies, I was able to hold on to land, and eventually surround and crush them, without a hitch and in a very mannerly fashion. The secret was using mixed armies of something like 10 to 1 odds against them, having a good bless of my own,, building plenty of castles with loads of PD, and being every bit as aggro as they are.

HB, it might help put an end to some of the argument here if you could be clear that you're talking about SP in your posts. Like:

"I've never had a problem stopping the Vanheim AI. Not only was I able to take out their armies in SP, I was able to hold on to land in SP, and eventually surround and crush the AI player, without a hitch (in SP) in a very mannerly fashion (against the AI)."

I don't want to ban Helheim/Vanheim from games, but I do know I'll be trying out the CB mod in the next MP game I host.

[Meglobob]

HoneyBadger said:
Yes, ofcourse SP. So, I'm only interested because Helheim and Vanheim are unbalanced for SP.

Helheim/Vanheim are not unbalanced in SP because the AI plays them, so anyone can beat them very easily with any nation after 1 or 2 months playing experience. In SP you want to give the AI as much advantage as possible to give you a challenge.

Helheim/Vanheim are unbalanced purely in MP play when a good player will use there strengths to the max.