Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)

[NTJedi]

RonD said:
Umbrals are now aquatic. Yet another reason to raise their cost.

Umbrals are very inexpensive and very powerful... now they are even more powerful. During singleplayer games these fellas are rarely summoned by the AI yet frequently summoned by human players.

Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

Maybe the developers made Umbrals even more powerful to give themselves a strong advantage during singleplayer games?

Post title changed pending split to separate thread

[Edi]

NT Jedi, the question is, are Umbrals enough to make Agartha unbalanced? And I'm not talking about SP games here.

[Sombre]

Even if they don't overpower Agartha, you could argue they make them unbalanced because Umbrals are that much better than everything else Agartha does. No balance within the nation,...?

[Edi]

That can be argued, but it is something that should be discussed in more detail. It is a matter of opinion, not directly a bug, so as far as I'm concerned, it is a nonissue at the moment.

[Meglobob]

Edi said:
NT Jedi, the question is, are Umbrals enough to make Agartha unbalanced? And I'm not talking about SP games here.

In my experience of MP and I play alot of MP, Umbrals do not make the nation unbalanced. Indeed EA & MA Agartha seem to struggle in MP. I believe this to be because the nation takes a long time to get going and so suffers early on.

LA Agartha is a nation who can more than hold its own.

NTJedi said:Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

They should definately not cost 8D gems. Perhaps a increase of 1 or 2 Deaths gems but no more.

[RonD]

We should move the balance discussion to a different thread.

[Edi]

RonD said:
We should move the balance discussion to a different thread.

I agree. *mutters powerful incantation*

There, that should do nicely...

Split from the Patch 3.08 sticky thread

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
Even if they don't overpower Agartha, you could argue they make them unbalanced because Umbrals are that much better than everything else Agartha does. No balance within the nation,...?

That's exactly the issue. I don't think Agatha for the most part is unbalanced, infact apart from LE they are rather weak. But Umbrals are simply tower above any other Agarthan national summon, and indeed almost any other summon in general. I don't think simply bumping up the gem cost is the best idea, rather they should be much higher research than the other summons to give them a real separate niche.

[MaxWilson]

NTJedi said:
Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

Maybe so, but Gift of Reason will dominate the cost. Is a GoR'ed Umbral that much superior to a Black Servant? It's several times more expensive.

I venture no opinion on whether normal Umbrals are underpriced. Not enough experience with 'em, although this thread is inspiring me to try them out.

-Max

[Shovah32]

The umbral is far superior to a black sevant.

Umbral:
68 Health
22 Strength
12 Attack
12 Defence
15 Magic Resistance
20 Morale
14/3 Movement
40 Normal Leadership
Amphibious

Black Servant:
18 Health
13 Strength
11 Attack
11 Defence
10 Magic Resistance
17 Morale
12/3 Movement
No Leadership

Both are undead(umbrals MR alone makes it superior due to this), both have 100% cold and poison resisance, both have stealth+0 and are ethereal.

So yes, imho Umbrals are that much superior to black servants.