Mod: Mytheology Pretenders

[Psientist]

Thanks Endo. Most of the pretenders I haven't tested on 3.08 (only on earlier versions), and I hadn't seen any of the bugs you mentioned. I'll take your advice, however, and post a fix as soon as I can, probably next week (deadlines loom!).

On the other hand, Desire is useless. 18 hp on a seducer/assassin unit ensures her death. I didn't check out her summons, or if she has a temporary second form but she CAN'T be used as a seducer as per her primary form's stats. It'd be suicide.

Part of that is intentional, I thought it would be theme-appropriate that a goddess of beauty isn't well suited for battle. She can summon Priestesses with lesser levels of her powers, which while also frail, made an interesting addition to battles in my tests.

Some pretenders are horribly overpowered. Fallen Angel of LA Marignon has F4D3S3B3 AND Holy 2. It costs just 150 points...

This is my biggest design weakness. I have a hard time getting the point / power balance down for MP, and MP play is what I've always had in mind. Mostly, i rely on feedback from others in the forum to help balance that out, I'm really open to any and all balancing suggestions. I've seriously increased the point costs of both the Pantokrator and the Grim Reaper due to posts on the forum. If there was some sort of general "formula" for cost/magic/special ability assignment, I'd be all over it. Something like

• total magic levels x20
• plus 40 x each special ability (summons, gems, etc)
• plus 1 for each attribute point (HP, strength, prot, etc.)
• = recommended Pretender cost, rounded up

Or some such (I haven't really worked out the numbers obviously).

Endo, thanks for the constructive feedback. Jute, Sombre, ditto for the compliments.

[Endoperez]

Level 3 in one path: 50 points
levels 2 in one path: 25 points
level 1 in one path: 10 points
no magic: -50 points

dominion 1: - 10 points
dominion 2: 0 points
dominion 3: 20 points
dominion 4: 50 points

pathcost 10: 30 points
pathcost 20: 20 points
pathcost 50-60: 0 points
pathcost 80: -25 points

size 2 body (10 hp, etc): -30 points
size 3-4 body (Virtue, PoD): 0 points
size 5-6 body (Asynja, Titans): 60 points
monster body (Dragon, Wyrm): 80 points

full slots: 0 points
extra slots: 20 points/slot
missing one or two slots: -30 points
missing most slots: -50 points

immortality: 30 points
special abilities (immunity or 2 50% resistances, regeneration, amphibious, flight): 10 points /ability
negative abilities (old age, magic being): -10 points/ ability
inanimate: -30 points and no body cost


Phoenix: Fire 1 (10 points), Air 1 (10 points), size 2 body (-30 points), immortality (30 points), flight (10 points), fire immunity (10 points): 40, 50 in game


Forge Lord: Fire 1 (10 points), Earth 1 (10 points), size 6 body (60 points), fire immunity (10 points), forge bonus (10 points), dominion 3 (20 points): 120, 125 in game

Dragon: fire 2 (25 points), monster body (80), flight (10), immunity (10), fear (10 points), restricted slots (-50), dominion 1 (-10), new paths 80 (-25 points): 50 points, 50 in game

Virtue: size 3 body (0 points), dominion 4 (50 points), air 2 (25 points), 2x 50% resistances (10 points), flight (10 points), awe (10 points), magic being (-10 points), newpath 80 (-25 points): 70 points, 50 in game

Great Enchantress: Earth 1 (10 points), Astral 1 (10 points), makes gems (10 points), pathcost 10 (30 points), human body (-30 points), dominion 1 (-10 points): 20 points, 55 in game

Master Druid: Nature 1 (10 points), stealthy (10 points), vine man/ogre summon bonus (10 points), pathcost 10 (30 points), human body (-30 points), dominion 1 (-10 points): 20 points, 35 in game

Crone: Death 1 (10 points), pathcost 10 (30 points), human body (-30 points), dominion 1 (-10 points), old age (-10 points), extra slots (2x20 points): 20 points, 0 in game

My formula doesn't work for rainbows.

Nataraja: size 6 body (60 points), extra slots (2x20 points), missing slots (-30 points), dominion 3 (20 points), pathcost 50 (0 points), no magic (-50 points): 40 points, 40 in game

Manticore: monster body (80 points), flying (10 points), poison immune (10 points), fear (10 points), pathcost 50 (0 points), no magic (-50 points), dominion 2 (0 points), missing most slots (-50 points): 10 points, 0 in game

Wyrm: monster body (80 points), amphibious (10 points), regeneration (10 points), poison immune (10 points), fear (10 points), dominion 3 (20 points), new paths 50 (0 points)no paths (-50 points), missing most slots (-50 points): 40 points, 50 in game

Solar Disc: Fire 3 (50 points), fire immunity (10 points), heat 13 (10 points) (lesser heat isn't good enough to count as an ability), flying (10 points), size 4 body (0 points), dominion 3 (20 points), new paths 50 (0 points), missing few slots (-30 points): 90 points, 75 in game

Prince of Death: Death 3 (50 points), cold immunity (10 points), fear (10 points), poison immunity (10 points), undead (-10 points), flying (10 points), size 4 body (0 points), dominion 3 (20 points): 100 points, 75 in game

Lord of the Sky: Air 3 (50 points), size 6 body (60 points), shock immunity (10 points), flying (10 points), dominion 3 (20 points): 150 points, same in game

it seems level 3 in a path is even more expensive I thought. 75 points for level 3 in one path.



This is a 5-minute guideline. Destroyer of Worlds - Nataraja difference of 125 points isn't here. Many size 5-6 pretenders with lesser magics are much cheaper in the game than this formula would make them cost.

Any way, let's check out some of your pretenders:

Pantokrator:
hps of a size 5 body: 60 points
Astral 3: 75 points
Water 2: 25 points
Fire 1, Air 1, Earth 1: 30 points
amphibious, flying, awe, fire shield, mapmove 4: 40 points
immortal: 30 points
old age: -10 points
dominion 3: 25 points
pathcost 20: 20 points
270 or 295 points, depending on if one uses the original or the corrected cost of level 3 path. Because the corrected gives almost the same result you had given him(295 and 300), it seems to work.

Grim Reaper:
Death 3: 75 points
amphibious, fear, poison immunity, etherealness, stealthy, blind, flying, mapmove 4, soul scythe: 90 points
immortality: 30 points
undead: -10 points
dominion 1: -10 points
pathcost 80: -25 points
150 points, your choice: 220
Your higher price is better, because he is ethereal, stealthy, enc 0, immortal flier with mapmove 4. He can kill any and all armies without specialized anti-Azrael mages anywhere near the capital in two turns, at max. He needs 10 gems of equipment, at most (body armor, perhaps amulet of luck). As for how the formula could be corrected to prevent such mistakes, etherealness is such a powerful ability that it could be given a price of 30 points as well.


Fallen Angel:
Fire 4: at least 75 points, perhaps 100
Death 3, Astral 3, Blood 3: 3x75 points
fear, fire immunity, sacred, flight: 40 points
recuperation: immortality also grants this, so free
immortality: 30 points
demon, magic being: -20 points
dominion 3: 25 points
pathcost 60: 0 points
375 or 400 points, depending on the cost of Fire 4. You've priced him at 150.


Morpheus:
size 2 body: -30 points
pathcost 30: perhaps 15 points
Air 4, Astral 4: 150 or 200 points, depending on if level 4 magic is 75 or 100 points
awe, glamour, precision 30: 30 points
magic being: -10 points
dominion 3: 25 points
180 or 230 points, depending on magics' price. You've priced him at 105.

Teratos Rex:
monster body: 80 points
fear, trample, berserk, siege bonus, recuperation, Crushbite: 60 points
Blood 1: 10 points
pathcost 70: -25 points
dominion 2: 0 points
total: 125 points, your price at 100
Crushbite is hideously powerful. It always hits (18 attack +10 weapon) and always deals 45 points of armor-piercing damage. Other monster pretenders don't have similar kill-em-all weapons of god destruction, and he also tramples all being he can't bite. It's not too bad because size 4-5 thugs and SCs can take him down.

Monkey King:
size 2 body: -30 points
dominion 1: -10 points
Air 1 Earth 1: 20 points
pathcost 20: 30 points
stealth, recuperation, mapmove 4, red feather cap, golden chain mail, gold band staff, copies: 70 points
total: 80 points, your price: 100 points
He's much tougher than normal humans, but not quite on the level of Virtue or PoD, so his body would be worth perhaps -10 points instead of -30. All his equipment is hideously powerful! +14 defense from both his helmet and his armor, and a ranged weapon with 8+str points of AP damage at range 50! 20 points of AP damage at that range for no fatigue is about as good as an Acid Bold: two targets instead of AoE 1, both are unresistable, both have special ability weakening the target (armor destruction/weakness). Very good in the beginning, less so after initial expansion, but still good against SCs in late game.

[Saulot]

Have to say, excellent and well-though post Endoperez. Your effort is appreciated, though I'd still like to hear from JK/KO, if they actually have a design & cost structure format. I have/saw somewhere a dom 2 modding guide for unit/commanders/mage costs, but something more comprehensive would be nice.

[Psientist]

Endo - that was very detailed. I had started making a spreadsheet to be consistent about all these things, and I'll incorporate your examples and post it to the forum tomorrow.
Thanks

[Endoperez]

Saulot said:
Have to say, excellent and well-though post Endoperez. Your effort is appreciated, though I'd still like to hear from JK/KO, if they actually have a design & cost structure format. I have/saw somewhere a dom 2 modding guide for unit/commanders/mage costs, but something more comprehensive would be nice.

AFAIK, there's no official pretender cost formula.

I'm glad that my quick formula seems to hold up. I just made some educated quesses and corrected it against few examples of various pretender classes, all directly to that post I made.

[Psientist]

Woot! I just got promoted to "sergeant".

Endo and all, check out my thread:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...b=5&o=&fpart=1

Hopefully I've created a consistent tool that incorporates your suggestions, plus a lot of additional detail.

I've used it to recost all my pretenders. i've also fixed all the bugs in the mod you guys pointed out. I think the 3.08 patch caused some new bugs (surprise), since the "messed up sprite" just showed up since 3.08, and had nothing to do with the actual Pretender's attributes.

Strangely, it seems to have something to do with some high-number pretender units that I think are in the new Tuatha nations, that seem to be "reserved" for some purposes.

For example, if I numbered my pretender's #shapechange alter to one of those numbers, the pretender wouldn't load. If, however, I changed the alter's unit number to something much higher... it would work. Even though the number is NOT in conflict with any other unit in my mod, and I don't have any other mods running.

Also, some pretenders would insist on showing that wierd titanic tuatha-looking warrior sprite no matter what until I changed the unit number for something very different. since it was a trial-and-error thing, it was very irritating to make it work.

At any rate, I also added a couple new pretenders and another new spell to my mod while I was going through the trouble, ending up with a pretty significant overhaul:

[Psientist]

Oh yeah, all my custom magic armors - which worked fine before - now cause crashiness. I have removed them for now. Will post the update shortly.

[Psientist]

Oh, by the way, here is the picture of the unknown dude who likes to substitute for my pretenders. As Endo hinted, alot of the problems were caused by when I tried to #copystat a new modded pretender... but not all of them.

[Psientist]

I've uploaded 2.01 (go to the first post in this thread to download). It includes the following fixes / changes:

- new spell, Sea of Scarabs.
- redone sprite for the Shah of Djinn and Ifritt (below), which I was never happy with before.
- new pretenders: Black Dragon, Gold Dragon, Shadowcat
- repaired pretenders (never worked): Carrion Lord
- fixed pretenders (broken by 3.08 patch): Monkey King, Great Egg, Thunderbird, Grim Reaper, Treelord (now Yggdrasil)
- Weakened Fallen Angel and Shah of Djinn and Ifritt, which were stacking up magic levels from the original unit I was copying.
- Re-costed and rebalanced ALL PRETENDERs.
- Repaired Shards of Hastur... made it stronger (more battlefield affected), and fixed transposition which made it a water spell instead of astral. Oops.

[Psientist]

Hey, I'm on a roll. Found another small bug due to "reserved" numbers, fixed it, and added five new spells which I think will add some interesting dimensions to the game: Runestone of Fortune, Runestone of Courage, Runestone of Faith, Runestone of Growth, Runestone of Peace (all self explanatory, pretty much).


Maybe if I come up with some great ideas, I'll add to the list of potential standing stones, and maybe give them some slightly different shapes so they start looking sort of like a stonehenge in your army lineup!