Underwater fighting (newbie)

[Coblin]

Hello all,

I am starting to do a reasonable job of fighting (against AI) on land, but have no idea how to fight underwater.

I am trying out several nations at the moment, including Abysia, Caelum, Ctis. What can you best do (not only with these nations, but all land nations) to move against the underwater nations in their own territory?

[Nikolai]

It is hard. Against AI, magical super combatants are best. AI cannot fight them. Summon Wraith Lord, give him ring of water breating, give him equipment, cast Soul Vortex, and kill dozens of troops.

Against a player, good Luck! I am watching a friend play a game in which he is killing player under water. He (my friend) has heavy infantry. A manual of water breathing lets them walk under water. Some wizard/priests lead, and cast Leagions of Steel, Strenght of Giants, Body Etherial, Luck on the heavy infantry, and then cast battle spells. It works, but by the end, most infantry is unconscious from tired. He said he is lucky he is fighting land nation as well. Water nation would have native water mages, and he would be killed.

All in all, fighting under water is same as fighting over water, but harder to get people breathing. Otherwise, an army with many super fighters, troop shielding and tons of mages works ;-)

[Baalz]

Nikolai said:
All in all, fighting under water is same as fighting over water, but harder to get people breathing.

Not true. There are two big differences 1) Even if you get your troops breathing underwater land troops get significant penalties fighting underwater (attack, defense, movement, maybe others). Aquatic troops are going to cut you up pretty bad on equal footing 2) Lots of spells don't work underwater. This is a particularly big hindrance if you're using a lot of fire mages.

All in all, bringing the fight below the water can be very difficult. Early game, you generally don't have a chance to do anything more than lightly harass. Mid game, (depending on your nation) it's usually only possible to press a real conquest if you're significantly more powerful than the water nation and can throw a lot more resources around than he can (or gang up on him). Late game things smooth out a bit more as you can field proper SCs, lots of undead, equipped spellcasters, mechanical men, etc.

The consolation is that aquatic nations are generally not powerhouses on land (excepting of course late game again), so try to squash their larger armies when you can tempt them onto land.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Building temples a little ways in from the shore can be helpful on occasions, though nowhere near always.

1). Reduce freespawn
2). Force them to spend money on their own temples, giving you something more to raid, and them to defend.
OR Force them to come up onto land to go after your temples, where you should have an advantage.
3). Waste your money.
4). Waste their money - underseas aren't always rich.
Remember, every temple is a dozen Illithids, or something like that.

I know you're looking more for tactical advice, but I'll go as vague as possible, for the moment. I'm sure someone will bring something specific to the table ASAP. I'll go the irrelevant route of SunTzu

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder,
and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to
balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent
the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in
order is to attack the enemy's army in the field;
and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

IV. TACTICAL DISPOSITIONS


1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself.
3. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat,
but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy.

11. If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced
to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high
rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack
some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

16. The spot where we intend to fight must not be
made known; for then the enemy will have to prepare
against a possible attack at several different points;
and his forces being thus distributed in many directions,
the numbers we shall have to face at any given point will
be proportionately few.

There are specific things you can do to aid in underwater expansion, but in general, the advantage will always lie with the underwater nation.

I'd get water breathing ringed scouts underwater, attempt to draw the enemy in one direction, and then strike with a force that is smaller, but much stronger on an individual basis. Pillage, overtax, tear down any structures you can, then flee. Once the water nation actually starts looking weak, then consider a serious war.

One practical possibility is Skeletons and Revenants/Mound Kings. They won't resemble a serious fighting force, but you can assemble them in large enough numbers for a low enough cost to harass the enemy on one front, and supplement the small amount of amphibians you can recruit/summon from a land site.

Without a specific nation in mind, you'll have to pour over the spell appendix in the manual for spells castable underwater. There ARE a few available even as Abyssia.

[sector24]

The basics of underwater for new players are:

1) Get Construction 6
2) Get Water Magic
3) Make 2 Sea King Goblets or Barrels of Air
4) Make 1 Wave Breaker Trident, Robe of the Sea, or Shambler Armor
5) Send in your best guys.
6) Get wiped out by 1200 Tritons

Oceania is by far the worst AI to fight underwater. They recruit water only troops endlessly and by the time you are ready to mount a serious assault on them they have hundreds upon hundreds of guys.

You have three options:
1) Make a ridiculous amount of sea goblets and lead hundreds of troops into the water in a direct confrontation
2) Cast province spells that raise unrest (and work underwater). Get the unrest over 100 in every province with a fortress and keep it that way until you have enough water equipment to mount an assault.
3) Make thugs/SCs that can kill large numbers. Wraith Lord with Soul Vortex, etc.

Sorry if this is too general. Most of the posters on the boards assume you know the basics, but if you don't then this is a good starting point. I find fighting underwater against the AI is typically quite tedious compared to the rest of the game, but it's good to know how to do it all the same.

[Valandil]

Against the AI its actually quite possible to bottle them underwater, research ench. 9, put up thetis' blessing, and march into the sea. Don't send the ritual caster, and make sure he isn't sying of old age.

Alternatively, take one water province early on, build a lab, and spend the rest of the game summong asp turtles.

[Meglobob]

I once used a sea kings goblet to take a army of elephants underwater.

They trampled everything in there path real good...