Unkillable aircraft!!!

[Deputy]

I've been playing the game for a few days now. Two things I noticed:
#1 It is VERY stable. No CTD like in SPWAW. Well done to the developers!!!

#2 Aircraft seem to be invincible and VERY deadly. I tried upping the accuracy of my German AA weapons, but that doesn't seem to help much. The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. NOTHING can shoot it down. And when it bombs tanks, even Panther tanks, they seem to have death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight. I tried turning all the US ratings to the lowest numbers and the German ratings to the highest numbers in the Preferences section, but even that doesn't help. Anyone else notice this? Any fix for it? I guess more hacking of files is in order.

Dep

[chuckfourth]

Hi Deputy
Ive got to agree with this also, heres something of relevance from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-82_rocket
"Like most unguided rockets, RS suffered from poor accuracy. Early testing demonstrated that, when fired from 500 m (1,640 ft), a mere 1.1% of 186 fired RS-82 hit a single tank and only 3.7% hit a column of tanks. RS-132 accuracy was even worse with no hits scored in 134 firings during one test. Combat accuracy was even worse since the rockets were typically fired from even greater distances. To further complicate the matters, RS-82 required a direct hit to disable light German armor with near-misses causing no damage. RS-132 could defeat medium German armor with a direct hit but caused almost no damage to light or medium armor with a near-miss. Best results were usually attained when firing in salvos against large ground targets."
These are the rockets mounted on the Sturmovic's
and from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-2
"Although the Il-2's RS-82 rockets could destroy armored vehicles with a single hit, they were so inaccurate that experienced Il-2 pilots mainly utilized their cannon armament"
Bombs are obviously even less accurate again. And have a similar "near miss" no effect, ie they produce very little schrapnel. Many of the larger bombs appearing on fighter bombers in the game were I think never used against vehicles or AA weapons, but rather against larger area targets.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

I ran up a couple of test scenarios with P51s vs a gaggle of Panther G. Clear map visibility 90. In both L3s come in to spot on turn 1 followed by 2 flights of 3 Mustangs with rockets on turn 2.

My observations would suggest that the rockets are not Panther killers (1 kill 1 disable out of 20 runs) and that Flak gunners seem to be drinking a lot of schnapps (the bird dogs get whacked every time but I only had 2 Mustangs shot down out of about 20).

Re-ran the no flak scenario using B25s with 75mm, ffars and 500lb bombs. Even with a couple of direct 500lb hits, only 1 disabled Panther.

[Deputy]

Chuck: I just updated WinSPWW2 with all the latest patches, and I didn't see any change/improvements as far as flak lethality or bombing/rocket effects being diminished. The FFAR rockets are essentially the same thing we used in Viet Nam. They were VERY inaccurate and were normally fired in salvos to get any kind of effect. Against armored targets, it would require a VERY lucky hit to get even damage to a tank, much less multiple kills. The 500 pound bomb is mainly an anti-personnel device, since as you state, the accuracy is even worse than the rockets. A direct hit with a 500 pound bomb probably would kill a Panther tank. It MAY make the ears ring for the crew of a King Tiger or other large tank. But achieving a direct hit with WW2 era bombing sights, while being shot at by flak units, should be a rare thing indeed.

Dep

[Deputy]

Good grief. It gets even worse. I am playing a scenario with German assault guns are assaulting a US-held town. I was in a hex NEXT TO a bazooka team. WHAM Assault gun destroyed with one shot. Okaaaaay. Lucky shot. I move another assault gun in the exact same spot. WHAM One shot and one kill. Good grief. These are early bazookas. They were notorious for bouncing off tanks rather than killing them so easily. I may change this bazooka team to a sniper team with those kind of results!!! I dunno how they set up these specs, but they are WAY OFF.

[PatG]

Hey Deputy - like yer icon
Can you download the sample scenarios from my previous post and see what happens.

[Deputy]

PatG said:
Hey Deputy - like yer icon
Can you download the sample scenarios from my previous post and see what happens.

LOL...haven't figured out what to use for an icon yet so I grabbed the train one. I am also an O-Gauge train collector/operator.
I'll download those scenarios and give them a try. Thanks!!!
Otherwise, I enjoy the sima lot. I even ordered the CD version and the one for the modern SP.

Dep

[DRG]

For fun I set up a test game with 8 P-51's attacking a flat field full of StuG IV's. It was a very "target rich environment" with more than enough targets to test the theory . The Mustangs where a mix of B's and D's carrying rockets and bombs. After the attack, 1 P-51 retired from the game due to battle damage from the AAMG's fire of the StuG's and of the StuG IV's, one had 2 points of damage and another had 1 point of damage. None were destroyed. HARDLY "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" .

I then set up another test game with 3 companies of StuG IV's on a flat map being attacked by a dozen P-51's with good visibility ( 60 ), again a mix of rocket carrying D's and bomb carrying B's. The result was , once again, one P-51 retired from the game due to battle damage from the AAMG's fire of the StuG's . However, the P-51's did a little better this time around with one ( 1 ) destroyed StuG, and three with 2 points of damage and one with 6 points of damage but once again, not even close to "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight"

I ran that second test a second time, The result this time was two P-51's retired due to AAMG damage, two StuG's received 2 points of damage and one StuG had 1 point of damage. None destroyed.

Ran the test AGAIN but this time with 8 German light flak guns added. 2 guns of each type available June 1944. Again with good visibility ( 63 )This time the aircraft were P-47's but if we are looking for "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" the P-47's will have them as well. This test ended up with 3 P-47's retired for battle damage and of the StuG's one was destroyed and 2 had minor battle damage. I hardly need point out , again, that none of these results in any way resembles "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" and in the last test 25% of the aircraft that attacked had to retire due to battle damage.

There is nothing wrong with the game.

As for the bazooka story, I've seen bazooka teams miss repeatedly. ( just did, in fact in a quick test game I set up ) and also hit and not penetrate but sometimes they get lucky ESPECIALLY when the target is in the adjacent hex. When you move armour adjacent to known AT teams without infantry support I'd say you got what you deserve.

Don

[Deputy]

Well I tried Pat's scenario and knocked down one spotter aircraft and 1 P51 vs 1 Panther G disabled. I then made a scenario (I am new at this so couldn't do it as well as Pat did) with ALL Wirbelwinds. I had at least 15 of them in a 50x50 area in a central location. I had P-51s with FFAR rockets attack them. One P-51 went down in flames. Two Wirbelwinds were destroyed. A couple of P-51s were lightly damaged. I'm sure the damage factor of the planes is related to the weapons being used against it. The Wirbelwind is "only" a quad 20MM gun. Pat had 37MM guns in his scenario. I'm still not sure things are adjusted right with flak. I know flak isn't made to accurate like a direct fire round would be. But with that many bursts from that many guns, I would think the likelihood of more hits goes up. I am also surprised at the flak guns ineffectiveness against ground troops. The 40MM "Duster" flak gun Uncle Sam used in Nam was DEADLY with air bursts against ground units. It was a great way to break up a human wave attack. Yet in SPWW2 flak hardly fazes an infantry unit. The opposite is true in SPWAW. Flak wipes out infantry, depending on how high the realism is set in preferences.

As to the bazooka...if the game is going to be representative of real world performance, than the bazooka is WAY off. Read reports of it's performance in WW2. Heck, if you want to see what it really performed like, watch the end of Saving Private Ryan. They got it pretty realistic. You could be right on top of an armored vehicle and have it bounce off. It wasn't unusual to have to fire multiple hits to get a kill. I could maybe understand if the armored vehicle had it's tail to the bazooka. That would present it's weakest area. But I got killed with head-on shots.

[Mobhack]

Just today, in my WW2 Soviet long campaign, I provided the AI with a beautiful target - 6 KV1 nose to tail along a road, with SMG sections mounted on each, and some T-34 nearby who had just dismounted, but all a tight-packed horde. Complacent. moi? !.

Anyway, I got attacked by around 6 ME-109. Mixed rocketeers and bombers. Results were 1 KV routed with its main gun shot off, and 2 stuck with busted tracks and a point of damage. About a company of SMG gunners running for home with severe headaches, and 3-6 points of damage for most of them. 3 M5 halftracks and 2 ZSU-37 trucks damaged one plane a few points.

later, the remaining planes strafed my guard mortar battery, and a pair of SP-37mm nearby damaged one, while they did a point or so of damage to a guard mortar MRL truck.

Air is not an uber weapon in WW2, nor is flack a sky-sweeper.

But I should have gone tactical with that KV column a move or so earlier..

If you expect air around, then the best way to deal with them is to spread out a min of a hex apart.

Cheers
Andy