Super Restricted Pretender Mod

[Sombre]

I was just talking on IRC about how it would be cool if national pretenders were a bit more restricted, especially as several of the default ones, such as Wyrm and Cyclops, are superior to most national ones.

So I thought hey, I can make mods, so why don't I try and do one to restrict pretenders a bit more? I knew of a few issues already with pretenders:

1. If you select a pretender and add #restrictedgod (nation number) the pretender is removed from all other nations it was available to. Thus you need to copystats it to a new monster number and add that one instead.

2. If you copystats a pretender with a new monster without restricting it to a certain nation with #restrictedgod (nation number) then it will appear as a default choice for all nations. This is what causes the 'hornblower pretender' bug in Worthy Heroes 1.8.

3. If you #selectmonster one of the default pretenders and give it #restrictedgod 79 (a high unused nation number), it vanishes from the default pretender selection of all the basegame nations.

Knowing this, it is entirely possibly to make a mod which restricts pretender choice more, assigning the default pretenders only to nations which thematically should have them.


So the first thing I need to know is, which are the default pretenders? Secondly, which nations in which eras should get them?

Should EA Marverni get the wyrm, should anyone else? Let me know people.



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LIST OF RESTRICTED PRETENDERS

Monolith (NS, primitive, more EA than LA)
Oracle (S, civilised, water theme, 'good')
Blood Fountain (B, 'evil')
Sacred Statue (S, civilised, humanoid, 'good')
Sphinx (S, heat scale, egyptian)
Wyrm (Serpent or nordic)
Manticore (Scorpion trait, flying, possibly blood themed?)
Titan (male - TBC)
Cyclops
Forge Lord
Master Lich
Lich
Ghost King
Vampire Queen
Freak Lord
Arch Mage
Crone
Frost Father
Great Sage
Master Druid
Great Enchantress
Dragon (Red)
Dragon (Blue)
Dragon (Green)
Phoenix
Moloch
Prince of Death


- Wyrm -

EA Niefelheim (He's not cold blooded)
EA Vanheim
EA Helheim
EA Sauromatia
EA Oceania
EA Atlantis
EA Rlyeh
EA Ctis
MA Jotunheim
MA Mictlan (MA is more serpenty and less blessy)
MA Vanheim
MA Ctis (He has swamp survival, so it's ok)
MA Pythium
MA Oceania
MA Atlantis
MA Rlyeh
LA Utgard
LA Midgard
LA Ctis
LA Pythium

I currently think this is too many nations for the wyrm. I'm thinking I'll have to decide he's either a serpenty god or a nordic god.

- Cyclops -

EA Arcoscephale
EA Agartha
MA Arcoscephale
MA Agartha
LA Arcoscephale


- Titan -

EA Niefelheim
EA Arcoscephale

MA Arcoscephale
MA Jotunheim

LA Arcoscephale
LA Utgard


- Prince of Death -

EA Ctis

MA Ermor

LA Ermor
LA Ctis

[Burnsaber]

I started a game using my nation mod, the pretenders that come for all nations should show up then, right?

Oracle 158
Blood Fountain 656
Wyrm 269
Titan (Air/Earth one) 602
Prince of Death 383
Master Lich 180
Manticore 462
Cyclops 156
Phoenix 608
Lich 179
Ghost King 872
Dragon (red) 216
Dragon (blue) 265
Dragon (green) 266
Freak Lord 246
Arch Mage (mounted) 244
Crone 249
Frost Father 250
Great Sage 251
Master Druid 270
Great Enchantress 485
Vampire Queen 862

[Sombre]

Thanks Burn, that's exactly what I was after.

Of course UW nations are a whole other issue, but probably best to address all of these default pretenders first.

So where should they go? Should they all be restricted? The rainbow mages and dragons for instance feel very 'default' and can be used where the national selection of pretenders lacks a certain kind of magic.

I should point out this mod is primarily concerned with thematic restrictions, but will also consider balance and gameplay. It's really just something for people who are sick of seeing different cyclops or prince of death designs fighting each other.

[Sombre]

Hmm. Seems some nations don't get blood fountain or oracle as defaults. That's weird.

See LA Midgard for example. Monolith, but no fountains. They are also missing Prince of Death.

I wonder what that's about. Seems a couple of these defaults might not be so default as first thought.

[vfb]

Yeah, the set of available pretenders does have lots of restrictions. MA Mictlan lost Moloch as a pretender choice going from 308 to 310 . (Of course the other MA Mictlan changes helped to make up for it!)

Anyone know of a nation for which the Wrym is not available? Otherwise it's the only pretender available to all nations:

{LA Rlyeh pretenders} intersect {MA Marignon pretenders} = {Wyrm}

[Sombre]

Pretenders who aren't 'default' but appear a LOT:

Monolith
Moloch

More to come?

[vfb]

Here's the list of all pretenders which all the land nations have access to:

Wrym
Titan
Cyclops
Phoenix
Red Dragon
Green Dragon
Freak Lord
Arch Mage
Crone
Great Sage
Master Druid
Great Enchantress

(Blue Dragon and Frost Father are missing from several 'hot' nations; Manticore is missing from Agartha)

Edit: Whoops, forgot to mention ... I think your idea is pretty cool! Especially the bit about restricting the pretenders to the thematic ones.

[Burnsaber]

I'm not really familiar with German folklore, nor Asian/Japanese pantheons, so I'm not spealing for Ulms, Tien C'his nor Yomis

I think that Wyrm should be restricted for Skandinavian nations (Helheim, Vanheim, Midgårds) of all ages and UW nations (they have few enough pretenders already), basing on the myth of Jormungård.
(besides, most of the skandi-nations are actually bless nations who'll probably use some other pretender )

Cyclops - probably Arco all ages?

Titan - This pretty all around. Almost all pantheons have a thunder god. Thor is in skandinavia, This guy just spells Zeus for Arcospehale, ..etc. Perhaps just disallow it form Agartha, Abyssia and other nations that really won't revere a thunder god?

Phoenix - Has anyone any clue from where the orginal Phoenix myth is from? It should be themtatical for all fire nations anyways.

Prince of Death could probably use more restricting for balance reasons, althought all Pantheons have a God of Death in some form. It's just so freakishly undercosted.

[Sombre]

Balance is a consideration of this mod, but is not the purpose, because pretenders in basegame are completely unbalanced anyway, with 20% of them being useful and the rest pretty much dross.

I'm aiming to restrict nations quite a bit more than they are currently (hence 'super' restricted), so I'm probably going to nix most of the defaults and redistribute them only to select nations. That includes the rainbow mages, partly because they are quite similar, partly because many nations get their own version with dom1 and pathcost10. Getting people to actually use varied national pretenders is a problem for balance mods and this isn't one. I really like what CBM has done, so when I redistribute stuff I will be keeping CBM in mind and assuming that all gods are roughly balanced against each other.

Wyrm - Probably all UW nations. Scandinavian cultures also sounds reasonable, as well as Ctis, MA/LA Pythium, Sauromatia, MA Mict (he is a serpent after all).

Cyclops - I thought Arco all ages for Cyclops too, but are there any other nations that should get him thematically?

Manticore - The scorpion part has me thinking Abysia and Machaka.

Fountain of Blood - Only blood access nations and probably not nations with very little blood.

Monolith - MA Mict (EA and LA have the big stone head instead), Marverni, EA Ulm, MA Man,.. who else?

Phoenix - Phoenix is in both western and eastern myths. It can be fairly widespread.

Vampire Queen - Basically if you take her as a generic vampire, she can fit in several nations, though with a preference for blood/death themed ones. EA/LA Mict, LA Ulm, MA/LA Ermor,...

[Burnsaber]

Cyclops seems to only be in greek mythology, but I think it could be thematical in Earth-heavy nations (Agartha?)

About Prince of Death, how about restricting him to death-heavy nations? C'tis of all ages, Ermor of all ages, Helheim.

According to wikipedia (I know, there are better sources, but wikipedia is fastets and most likely accurate enough for this cause, it's not like we are being scientific or anything.) Manticore is from Persia according to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore. So Abyssia would most likely be a good choice. Caelum might also be a candidate because of the Zoroastrianism (manticore also flies!). Manticore is not that powerful, so it also might be given to blood heavy nations (crossbreeds, you know), if ti spread more widely, perhaps it will see some use when it doesn't have to compete with Wyrm all the time.

About Titan. I was thinking it could be thematical for all of the following:
Skandinavia, Vanheim all ages, Giants of all ages, Helheim (Titan is a obvious Thor wannabe)
Arcosephale of all ages (umm.. Zeus, anyone?)
EA Ermor (Jupiter from Rome)
EA and MA Ulm (Germans also had Thor)
Tir' n' Og, Eriu and Man of all ages (thunder god fits their style)
Caelum of all ages (fits their style and it allows them to dip for earth magic)

I assume that you will restrict the rainbows according to paths? That only frost/water mage nations will get Forst Father and so on?