New Mod: The Art of War Mod

geoschmo · #1 April 30th, 2002, 03:05 PM

As a spinoff to our discussion about SEIV strategy, I am going take a crack at modding some of these ideas.

The goal of this mod will be to offer players a few more choices in ship design and tactics. I am not one who thinks the game has only one right answer, but I will admit that as the game goes on the choices that have any legitimate chance at success get narrower. I want to hopefully tweak some of the weapons that become obsolete so that they can retain there usefullness longer into the game. I'd also like to try and offer the player some "Guns or Butter" choices so that the game is not strictly a matter of a race to the best ships.

The first decision I made was that I would be conceding the AI. Primarily this is becasue I have never been very good at tweaking them, and they are always the lion's share of the work in any mod I have ever contributed too. They have to be adjusted every time a new patch comes out, and in many cases they prevent some good ideas from even being attempted, because they just aren't capable of using some techs properly. Because of this this will be a strictly multiplayer mod. In fact I will be building the No AI Mod into this mod so one of the goals will be to get the AI to do nothing in the event you miss a turn in a multiplayer game.

More details to follow. If you have any suggestions by all means feel free. I wont promise I will use them, but I will listen.

Geoschmo

Bman · #2 April 30th, 2002, 03:41 PM

You might as well incorporate different cloak types at different levels...for example, cloaking devices that only block 1 or 2 types of sensors. So if you want to be invisible to the entire spectrum you must carry several different devices (that required different research) and likewise if you want to detect all possible cloaked ships you must have researched/built several different sensors.

Armor - Regular armor is really not viable in the longterm: It's damage/kT ratio is lower than shields and it requires repairing after combat. I have always thought it should have a better damage/kT ratio than shields *because* it needs to be repaired. Hopefully armor can be improved so that there is a real choice between shields and armor in the mid to late game.

By that same token, I cannot think of any non-racial armor-skipping guns except for the null-space cannon and of course the special weapons (engine/weapon/computer killing). The problem with nullspace is that it skips shields too. It would be nice to have some more armor-skipping weapon choices. They should be at least as expensive as PPB's. And consideration must be made for crystalline/organic races. If everyone gets armor-skipping weapons real easy then these races would suffer. Perhaps do as others have done and remove the "Armor" ability from Crystalline/Organic armor and make them act like regular components and make them have higher damage/kT ratios. This way, they will not block every shot, but when they do block a shot they are more effective and they are also immune to armor-skipping weapons. In fact, it would be nice to have some Versions of "regular" armor that do not have the Armor attribute. This gives you a "bread and butter" choice: Do you want armor that always gets hit first but is vulnerable to armor-skipping weapons? Or do you want armor that does not always block the damage, but is not vulnerable to armor-skipping?

Engines: Make Versions that give different amount of supplies or use different amounts when used. This will give you a choice between range and speed. Also, make more Versions that are "heavily shielded". This gives a choice between speed and/or range vs survivability esp. against engine-killing weapons.

Well, those are some ideas off of the top of my head. I am not a modder though so take it for what it is worth.

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
As a spinoff to our discussion about SEIV strategy, I am going take a crack at modding some of these ideas.

The goal of this mod will be to offer players a few more choices in ship design and tactics. I am not one who thinks the game has only one right answer, but I will admit that as the game goes on the choices that have any legitimate chance at success get narrower. I want to hopefully tweak some of the weapons that become obsolete so that they can retain there usefullness longer into the game. I'd also like to try and offer the player some "Guns or Butter" choices so that the game is not strictly a matter of a race to the best ships.

The first decision I made was that I would be conceding the AI. Primarily this is becasue I have never been very good at tweaking them, and they are always the lion's share of the work in any mod I have ever contributed too. They have to be adjusted every time a new patch comes out, and in many cases they prevent some good ideas from even being attempted, because they just aren't capable of using some techs properly. Because of this this will be a strictly multiplayer mod. In fact I will be building the No AI Mod into this mod so one of the goals will be to get the AI to do nothing in the event you miss a turn in a multiplayer game.

More details to follow. If you have any suggestions by all means feel free. I wont promise I will use them, but I will listen.

Geoschmo

mottlee · #3 April 30th, 2002, 03:58 PM

Maybe (if possable) weapons that can tgt like the bridge or SD device so boarding will be better without killing the hole thing, I am not sure but if the bridge is killed, have the Attack and Def suffer Just a thought

dogscoff · #4 April 30th, 2002, 04:18 PM

Looking forward to this mod. I have a few suggestions to throwinto the pit:

1- Horribly complicated tech tree. Lots and lots of crossover techs will encourage players to research a variety of areas rather than committing themselves utterly to just one or two.
Also, you might consider duplicating certain techs and having identical components in different branches of the tech tree, to give players more choicve within their chosen research areas.

The other thing I'm suggesting not so much because it fits in with your mod but more because I can't believe I've never seen it suggested before and I'm itching to mention it: Multi-unit launchers: Once you've researched fighters 3 and drones 3 (Construction 2 as well?), you get a unit launch component that will launch fighters or drones. Ditto mines/ sats. They would probably have a small cargo and/ or launch rate penalty compared to the dedicated launchers.

geoschmo · #5 April 30th, 2002, 04:31 PM

Multi unit launchers 'eh? Why hasn't anyone thought of that one before. Also, what about giving standard cargo bay some launch capability, maybe one per turn. I mean, what's wrong with opening the door and shoving it out into space.

Not sure what the benifit would be, but it's something to think about.

PDF · #6 April 30th, 2002, 05:00 PM

Does the game really need a major weapon overhaul to restablish balance ? I'm quit newbie so haven't much hindsight, but from what I've read (and I did read a lot

) the main imbalances were with CSM in early game, then PB and PPB, each being too effective vs competition.

So why just tweaking/downing these a bit ?
While I don't have anything against mods

, I 'd largely prefer a mod that can be made compatible with the others and allow AI play rather than a new incompatible one only for PBEM/PBW games.

Very few people will be able to really get into this, and it will create new design/game paradigms only applicable to it (instead of refreshing he whole design thing for many players that play the vast majority of their games vs the AI).

Just my 0.02

Cylapse · #7 April 30th, 2002, 05:22 PM

Damn... its about time this was initiated *LOL* You have a good head on ya shoulders, Geo. I notice you are typically a voice of reason.

Bman had a good point about the armor skipping weapons. I also fashioned one of these, as I feel its a fair enough advantage to have available to most players - at the sacrifice of damage and effectiveness at high range... I made mine taper off, so that at far range it does next to nothing, hell it generally doesnt even show on the damage meter (tactical)... But up close, its a fierce weapon... Called it 'Cold-Fusion Cannon' and made it part of its own tech area along with a weapon called Dark-Matter Torpedos (futurama fan, and dark matter just sounds so cool *LOL*)... they however, cannot skip armor and act as more of a bludgening assault. The Cold-Fusion Cannons (CFC's) are generally balanced, but thats my distoted view, would be happy to have someone good at balancing look them over - as they are a permanent part of my games.)

(sorry for double post, hit tab-enter on accident - or somethen! LOL)

Anyway - enough rambling. This looks interesting... I love variety and the rp aspect... I dont play PBW coz WTF? Why play if I have no choice but to play against a buncha cutthroat babies? LOL The game has an elegant flair, and it should be better utilized.

Its an amazing format for RP, which is what makes the choice so much nicer...its kinda lame when you engage an alien race who has the same armament as every other race. Good concepts, I am interested... wanna see how this evolves.

geoschmo · #8 April 30th, 2002, 05:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PDF:
Does the game really need a major weapon overhaul to restablish balance ? I'm quit newbie so haven't much hindsight, but from what I've read (and I did read a lot ) the main imbalances were with CSM in early game, then PB and PPB, each being too effective vs competition.

Nope, you are quite right. I do not belive the stock game is extermely unbalanced. I am simply wanting to tweak a few that becom obsolete too early, and to give some more choices in the game. Anyone expecting huge radical changes to the weapons tech will be disapointed with this mod.

quote:
Originally posted by PDF:
So why just tweaking/downing these a bit ?
While I don't have anything against mods , I 'd largely prefer a mod that can be made compatible with the others and allow AI play rather than a new incompatible one only for PBEM/PBW games.

Very few people will be able to really get into this, and it will create new design/game paradigms only applicable to it (instead of refreshing he whole design thing for many players that play the vast majority of their games vs the AI).

Right again. Since most people do play most of their games against the AI, I don't ever expect this mod to get the widespread following of a TDM mod. This will be a mod for those like me that don't care to play aginst an AI, no matter how good you make them. Because, no natter how good you make them, they will never equal even a bad human player in my mind, unless you give them bonuses or handicap yourself in some way. And even if you could manipulate the code to such a degree that the AI was truly as challanging as a human, there is just something about knowing that there is a human intelligence controlling those ships. A human intelligence that is reacting to your actions, and planning your demise. It gets my blood pumping in a way that no AI ever will.

I think there are enough people like me that I will be able to get a few games out of it at least. And if not, that's fine too.

Geoschmo

[ 30 April 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Cylapse · #9 April 30th, 2002, 05:25 PM

PDF - I do agree on one aspect, I would prefer to have -some- AI support, but thats an extremely daunting task.... If at all a possibility, Geo, you may need to hire an outside contractor for AI work ;-)

geoschmo · #10 April 30th, 2002, 05:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cynapse:
PDF - I do agree on one aspect, I would prefer to have -some- AI support, but thats an extremely daunting task.... If at all a possibility, Geo, you may need to hire an outside contractor for AI work ;-)

As with almost all SE4 mods, this one will be a hodgepodge of ideas of my own, and stuff borrowed from others. If when I have it completed someone wants to take it upon themselves to make the AI useable with it, that is fine with me.

I am going to have fun with this and use some ideas that I think will give any prospective AI designer real headaches.

Geoschmo