The Bogarus Problem

[Ming]

K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.

[Lingchih]

JimMorrison said:
Bogarus has not won a single MP game yet.

Hold your horses. Micah is playing Bogarus now in Artifacts. I would never count him out playing any nation.

[chrispedersen]

I think an undead pretender is a poor choice against a powerful priest bless strategy.

My own submission follows = )

[Renojustin]

Undead pretenders aren't vulnerable to priest banishings as such but can be suspectible to nastiness if the opposing nations have some Death.

[JimMorrison]

Lingchih said:

Hold your horses. Micah is playing Bogarus now in Artifacts. I would never count him out playing any nation.

Hey, I'm just saying! It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat.

But I'm doubting anyone would do an awake pretender in the Artifacts scenario, so best we can hope for there is evidence that the awake SC is NOT needed.

Unless Micah's idea of an insane prank, is to gear out a -20hp rainbow chassis on turn 2 and go to town. o.O

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:
It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat.

Kind of begs the question, Jim, how many games have you won with any strategy?

[K]

Ming said:
K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.

Sure. I'm saying that fighting off a dual Bless attacker is going to come from your troops, PD, overall unit placement and strategy, and whatever magic you can muster. An SC pretender is remarkably weak early in the game without the proper equipment, so spending points on one for a hypothetical Turn 6 attack is a fine way of killing your late game for almost nothing in return. For a laugh, send in a Dom10 PoD without equipment against a small Bless Army backed by some archers and see how badly he gets hurt.

Sure, it will help (assuming it doesn't get killed or Feebleminded against a lucky indie). But, having good scales will also help by letting you get more gold and resources for troops.

The "Awake SC Pretender" strategy is about equipping them decently to take care of trouble provinces or to kill moderately sized enemy armies on Turns 10-20. If you are worried about Turn 6, then an Awake SC Pretender is not worth the little help it offers.

[chrispedersen]

Father of Winters
-3 -3 -3 (cold) x +3 luck, +2 Magic.
Dominion 9. W-10.

So look - we already know the Bogarus troops are well - bogus. Looking at the nation, you see the slimmest ray of hope.

All the troops are cold resistent (50). They have a cheap sacred. (10/3 thats sacred chaff).

And the Father of Winders has Cold Power. So going into a 4-5 dominion cold 3 province.. he has 150+ hp, chill 25, defense 27.

So the premise here is: To take a clue from the name - the Age of Heros. And indeed 3/5 times I tried this I got a national hero in the first 6 turns.

Expand cautiously. Preach prodigiously. You have cheap H3 priests. Use them as smiters. Use the sacred as chaff allowing the chill to kill.

You're going to take a lot of chaff casualties. But oddly, it allows you to do relatively better in hcav provinces.

But avoid undead with your pretender - and be very very careful. He's very fragile.

You might also try a death -3, and screw your army completely.

[Jazzepi]

Death 3 is the worst idea for Bogarus. Their good mages are old.

Jazzepi

[Chris_Byler]

DrPraetorious said:
Mictlan is definitely the *best* of the LA bless rushers, but Midgard, Gath, Patala and T'ien Ch'i all have sacreds good enough to sustain a double-bless rush that will eat Bogarus alive, and they'd be fools not to use it if they're your neighbor. You might also espect a rush out of Ermor, Man or Utgard, since you-have-to-die.

They won't know they're your neighbor until *after* they create their god. Committing your nation to a blessrush on the off chance you *might* be next to Bogarus seems like a weak move - unless you expect those nations to blessrush regardless of who their neighbors are? Even then, it's just the crapshoot of landing next to a rusher.

Taking an awake god as rush insurance is only sensible if (a) it will work and actually stop rushes, and (b) won't cost you so much that you'll lose even if you survive the opening. Based on this thread it looks like awake gods for Bogarus are questionable on *both* counts.

Of course map size, indy strength and other settings matter too.