Mod: New nation : Shangri La, Hidden City of the Secret Masters

[Endoperez]

I suggest that you find and read Baalz's Guide to Marverni. He describes various nasty ways to use Earth combination mages are, which would help you understand why Hidden Masters are so great. And they are great.

I think the Marverni guide has the highest combination of being fun to read and teaching new things about Dominions I've come across in these forums. It's not quite as fun as his guide to Hinnom( eats everything!), but it was the first time I was able to understand how much good mages rule in the endgame.

[Aezeal]

Well the change seems better, 7 magic path points with maybe one extra isn't that overpowered since none will reach more than 4 and usually max 3.

Don't forget the prices on the other mages though.

[Kristoffer O]

I'm not sure what the role of the hidden masters are in your shangrilan society. If religion is an important part of society and the hidden masters are temporal and religionus leaders known and respected in the society as a whole they deserve 3 holy. If they are hidden and sequester themselves from society holy 2 might fit better.

The celestial masters of TC are only holy 2, and they have a role as leaders of the faith. However the faith is not as institutionalized as in say Marignon or Pythium and magical practices complement faith in many ways.

Since Tibet might be viewed as a theocracy it might fit with holy 3, but it might also fit with holy 2 if the religious leaders are not part of the faith and practicers of the commoners. On the other hand they might represent otherworldly/enlightened/sacred(as in 'apart') beings of true faith, in which case 3 fits very good.

[Nounours]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

Since Tibet might be viewed as a theocracy it might fit with holy 3, but it might also fit with holy 2 if the religious leaders are not part of the faith and practicers of the commoners. On the other hand they might represent otherworldly/enlightened/sacred(as in 'apart') beings of true faith, in which case 3 fits very good.

Hidden Masters are indeed enlightened beings who nearly achieved spiritual ascension, and represent the spiritual ideal of Shangrilan religion. They are viewed as models to follow, and examples of spiritual perfection. They are the spiritual leaders of the nation, and hold the supreme authority. They don't meddle with day-to-day affairs, this is the role of lamas (gelugs in particular) and rje (shangrilan kings), but their word is LAW. Those who exert temporal authority are seen merely as servants. The Hidden Masters take the important decisions, in temporal as in spiritual matters, but are too important and too sacred to be annoyed with petty temporal problems. It's why I gave them holy 3.

[HoneyBadger]

Units:

Bhödpa Spearman : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 13, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 11(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 8.

Bhödpa Archer: Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 9, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10,Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Dagger, Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 6.

Bhödpa Warrior: Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 13, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 11(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion, Javelins. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 11.

Bhödpa yack rider : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 10, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 22(3), Prec 9. Weapons: Light Lance, Gore (Dmg 13, no strength added), Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Mounted.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 14.

Bhödpa Horseman : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 7, Mor 11, MR 10 Mv 25(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Light Lance, Hoof, Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Mounted.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 14.

Mda Pad (Shangrilan archer) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 9, Prot 9, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 11(2), Prec 12. Weapons: Shortsword, Composite bow. Armor: Full Leather Armor, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 12.

Shangrilan Crossbowman : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 12, Prot 9, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 10(2), Prec 12. Weapons: Shortsword, Crossbow. Armor: Full Leather Armor, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 14.

Shangrilan Medium Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 8, Prot 13, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 10(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Glaive. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 17.

Shangrilan Medium Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 13, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet, Tower Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 20.

Shangrilan Heavy Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 7, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 9(1), Prec 9. Weapons: Glaive. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 20.

Shangrilan Heavy Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 13, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 7(1), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Tower Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 23.

Dmag Dar (Shangrilan Standard-bearer) : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 9, Prot 13,Mor 14, MR 11, Mv 10(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; standard (5).
Cost: Gold 20, Res 17.

Dmag Hrag (Shangrilan Elite Infantry) : Hp 14, Size 2, Str 11, Att 13, Def 13, Prot 17, Mor 14, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Chain Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 25, Res 27.

Rta Pa (Shangrilan Heavy Cavalry) : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 11, Att 12, Def 15, Prot 19, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 23(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof, Composite bow. Armor: Rta Pa armor (Prot 19, def -3, enc 3), Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 9.

Huge Prot. for EA. With Res. 9 it's unbalanced. I'd suggest no higher than 16 Prot. for EA, unless you've got a *very* special case. Even in unique circumstances, I'd think long and hard before making any recruitable unit's Prot. more than 18 in EA.

Rule of thumb: 10 Prot in EA is rare, 12 Prot is very good, 14 is superior, and 16 is fantastic.

Shangrilan Guardian of the Hidden Valley : Hp 15, Size 2, Str 11, Att 13, Def 14, Prot 14, Mor 15, MR 12, Mv 11(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Castle def. 1; Patrol bonus 1; sacred.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 44.

Mi Gö : Hp 20, Size 3, Str 16, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 5, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 14(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Great Club. Mountain surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 3.

Mi Gö Hunter : Hp 20, Size 3, Str 16, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 5, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 14(2), Prec 11. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Mountain surv; Forest surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1; Stealthy 5.
Cost: Gold 25, Res 5.

Mi Dred : Hp 25, Size 3, Str 16, Att 12, Def 10, Prot 14, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 13(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Ice Cudgel (Dmg 8, Len 3, magic, second. eff. Cold). Armor: Scale Mail Cuirass, Bronze Cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1; Sacred.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 21.

Commanders:

Bhödpa Scout : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 11, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 10(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Armor: Furs, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
No leader; Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 7.

Bhödpa Sde Pa (Bhödpa Clan Chief) : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 11, Att 11, Def 13, Prot 9, Mor 10, MR 10, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Cuirass, Reinforced leather cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 14.

Dmag Dpon (Shangrilan Officer) : Hp 14, Size 2, Str 11, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Standard (5); good leader.
Cost: Gold 60, Res 22.

Rta Dma Go (Shangrilan Cavalry Commander) : Hp 14, Size 3, Str 12, Att 12, Def 17, Prot 19, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 23(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof. Armor: Rta Pa armor (Prot 19, def -3, enc 3), Half Helmet, Shield.
Cold res. 50, Mounted; Standard (5).
Cost: Gold 80, Res 41.

Rje (Shangrilan King) : Hp 16, Size 2, Str 13, Att 13, Def 17, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Standard (15); expert leader; Sacred.
Cost: Gold 140, Res 22.

Trapa (Shangrilan Monk) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 9, Prot 1, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor leader; Sacred.
Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 50, Res 2.

Ngagspa (Shangrilan Sorcerer) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 2, Mor 11, MR 13, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Phurba (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +1, magic, dmg x2 vs.demons). Armor: Robes.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor leader; research bonus -3.
Earth 1, Death 1, Nature 1, Blood 1, 50 % chance Air, Earth, Death, Nature or Blood,50 % chance Air, Earth, Death, Nature or Blood (twice, it's not an error).
Cost: Gold 150, Res 2.

Demon Hunter : Hp 11, Size 2, Str 10, Att 13, Def 11, Prot 1, Mor 15, MR 12, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Phurba (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +1, magic, dmg x2 vs. demons). Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; poor leader; Sacred.
Fire 2, Astral 1, Holy 1, 50 % chance Air, Fire, Astral, death or Blood.
Cost: Gold 160, Res 6.

Ragyapa : Hp 11, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 1, Mor 13, MR 12, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Kukri (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +2). Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor Leader; Sacred.
Fire 2, Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 120, Res 4.

Nyingmapa (Red-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 3, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor Leader; poor magic leader; Sacred.
Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 2, Holy 2, 100 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral, 50 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 240, Res 2.

Gelug (Yellow-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 2, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Sacred; OK Leader, poor magic leader.
Air 1, Earth 1, Astral 2, Holy 2, 100 % chance Air, Earth or Astral, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 220, Res 2.

Karmapa (Black-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 1, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes.Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Fortune teller (10); Poor Leader, Poor undead Leader; Sacred.
Air 1, Astral 3, Death 1, Holy 2, 100 % chance Air, Earth, Astral or Death, 20 % chance Air, Earth, Astral or Death.
Cost: Gold 230, Res 2.

Hidden Master : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 3, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 14. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 75, poison res. 50; NNE; Flying; Stealthy 10; OK leader; Sacred.
Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 3, Holy 3, 100 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral, 20 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 360, Res 2.

Your nation has good access to every path except Water-to which it's got resistances (Cold). You've also got recruitable Sacreds, strong Summons (it sounds like), and terrific Holy magic. I don't see too much that it's weak against, nor do I see much that it can't do--or that really *defines* it as a Tibetan nation. It's good so far-and fantastic, graphically!-especially as a first effort, but I think some time and effort still needs to be done to get them statistically where they should be.

I hope this helps a little-there's better judges out there, but those are the things that are most glaringly obvious.

[Nounours]

OK, let's see...

1) Shangri La is now in MA, not EA , so I guess high Prot is OK. Furthermore, it seems tibetan armors were renowned (as far as Arabia) and of high quality. I removed some units (crossbwoman, medium infantry), so Shangri La have now units with either low prot (Bhödpa infantry with prot 7) or high prot (shangrilan infantry & cavalry).

2) Sacred units now cost much more (respectively 60 gp for Guardians of the Hidden Valley & 70 gp for Mi Dred).

3) Mages are more expensive (+30/60 gp) & less powerful (for example : Ngagspa : Earth 1, Death 1, Blood 1, 100 % chance Air, Earth, Death or Blood ; Demon Hunter : Fire 1, Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance for Air, Fire, Astral or Death ; Ragyapa : Death 1, Holy 1, 50 % chance for Air or Death; Ragyapa were never meant to have Fire nor Astral magic, it's a typo...).

4) Magic diversity : Wise Ones (Mi Gö mages) HAVE some water magic (1, possibly 2), but are quite expensive, I think (240 gp for a W1, E1, N1 mage with 50 % for +1 in W/E/N), and are cap only. Ngagaspa no longer have Nature, so Wise Ones are your only access to Water & Nature, and, I repeat, they're cap only and quite expensive.

5) Yes, Shangri La have strong summons, but I'm trying to make them expensive and difficult to access: many summons require death and/or blood 3+, while you have a quite limited access to death and blood magic (karmapa may have high death magic levels, but no blood, and Ngagspa have Death and Blood at 1, and a chance to have of these two at 2, but not both), or Water and/or Nature. I'm trying to fix the cost of summons to a quite high amount of gems/blood slaves, but not TOO high (I've changed the cost about 6-8 times as for now, and I think I've found a good amount for each summon).

7) I've lowered the leadership of Dmag Dpon and Rje (respectively 40/80).

8) As for being thematic...

- I try to make units according to the documentation I found (tibetan seemed to have very good heavy cavalry, the chinese feared them a lot; they also had quite heavy infantry, and often wielded spears or swords; They also had light infantry and cavalry, in Shangri La the Bhödpa; BTW, Bhödpa means "people of Bhöd", "inhabitant of Bhöd", and Böd is tibetan for... Tibet !). I gave units tibetan names: Rta Pa means "horseman" or "mounted soldier" in tibetan, Dmag Hrag is "capable soldier", Mda Pa is "soldier armed with bow & arrows", dmag dpon means "army commander"; Nyingmapa, Karmapa & Gelug (or Gelugpa) are actual sects (understand "school") of tibetan buddhism (Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th & actual Dalai Lama, is a Gelugpa); Ngagspa is a word used for example by Alexandra David-Néel to name a sorcerer or magic-user, etc...

- Tibetan mages were famed for their great powers, they were also greatly feared by their neighbours. It is why I gave Shangrilan mages such high levels in magic (and also because many great & famous lamas were reputed to have great spiritual powers or to be great wizards or sorcerers), and many of them are priests, with high levels in holy magics, 'cause Tibet is a theocraty (priests rule and have a VERY great influence, even in everyday life) & lamas are said to possess magical knowledge.

- Magic diversity : it seems that tibetans are obsessed with magic, sorcerers & demons. Lamas are said to have spiritual powers (they are able to send their spirit across great distances, to foretell the future or see distant places, etc...), so Astral magic seems to fit in. They also inhabit a rocky mountain land (air for heights & earth for the mountains), and tibetan mages are said to be able to send messages "across the air", use illusions, may make their body as hard as rock or steel and have some powers over the land (including earthquakes or landslides, it seems). Reincarnation, strange burial rites ("sky burial") and medium-trances to comunicate with the deceased ones, all this made me include death magic. Tibetan exorcists uses fire against demons (Padmasambhava used it against the theu'rangs and against the deity/demon Pehar) and mystics use technics based on "inner fire", so I gave a bit of fire magic ('cause I couldn't give 'em a lot) to Demon Hunters. Finally, evil spells, necromancy, curses and summoning of demons and other wicked beasts (Death, again, & blood) are common when you speak about tibetan sorcerers. Even milarepa, the poet & buddhist ascet, first learned "dark magics" & used it to send a giant scorpion to crush the house of his family's enemies (who said "Bind Scorpion Beast" ?)...


(My post is almost as long as HoneyBadger's one )

[Aezeal]

Well I think your changes are a good step.. it's still pretty strong but more balanced now though probably still a bit overpowered. It still has a lot of powerfull aspects, no real weaknesses except not having a good SC chassis.

Nice nation, GL with it

[HoneyBadger]

Thematically, you're doing great, and sorry, I thought this had been changed to EA-
So my bad there. I don't honestly have that much experience with MA, or LA, I'm an EA player, for the most part, atleast that's what I'm used to.

Anyway, I didn't mean that the theme itself was off, just that there are ways to take a theme, and introduce it to the game mechanics-like your great example for "bind scorpion beast".

Magical diversity also isn't necessarily a problem, it just becomes a problem when you've got too much and too powerful. It sounds like you're giving that some consideration, though, and that's good.

Here's a few thoughts:
One way to balance these guys out would be to remove some of their Movement (as in Provinces-per-Turn). Tibetan armour might have been known and renouned as far away as Arabia, but the Tibetans themselves don't seem to have wandered terribly far away from Chomolungma. Not every 3 needs to be a 2, or every 2 reduced to 1, but if you made your horsemen a 2, and your crossbowmen a 1, it would do a lot for balance (and not make them quite as crossbow-crazy as every other MA nation), and also give more reason to use your archers.

Also, your yak-riders are both awesome and terrible. There's really no reason in the world to buy a horseman, with yaks around. But, other than the Gore replacing the Hoof, they're currently interchangeable with horsemen. If it were me (and it's not, I know), I'd take away all of your horse-mounted units' Mountainwalk ability, and just give it to the yaks, which I would then make "No need to Eat" (to better represent the Tibetan treasure-trove that is a yak), and give Stealth (0) to-along with a Gold-hike. You might even put your Rta-Pa on yaks, since that would further single them out from all the other heavy calvalry running around in MA, and give them "No Need to Eat" too-although I don't know that I'd go so far as to give them Stealth. Yak secondform is also a possibility-Some riderless yaks (animals) running around the battlefield would be interesting. I'd give the yaks (only, not the riders) NNE + Supply (2)--giving your army a little food-boost in those hostile wastelands they like to live in--which opens up the possibility of making recruitable yaks. Armies traveling around with herds of yaks would definitely distinguish them from other nations

[Nounours]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

One way to balance these guys out would be to remove some of their Movement (as in Provinces-per-Turn). Tibetan armour might have been known and renouned as far away as Arabia, but the Tibetans themselves don't seem to have wandered terribly far away from Chomolungma. Not every 3 needs to be a 2, or every 2 reduced to 1, but if you made your horsemen a 2, and your crossbowmen a 1, it would do a lot for balance (and not make them quite as crossbow-crazy as every other MA nation), and also give more reason to use your archers.

I will consider reducing heavy cavalry movement. For crossbowmen, I have augmented their movement so much that now they are in LA (yep, they are so fast they travel through eras !), so no more crossbow in MA, I think. But perhaps a special-crossbowman unit in LA (I was thinking in something like the chinese Chu-Ko-Nu, or repeating crossbow : less powerful than ordinary crossbow, thus less damage, not armor-piercing, but poisoned, as it was often the case historically...)

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

yak-riders are both awesome and terrible. There's really no reason in the world to buy a horseman, with yaks around. But, other than the Gore replacing the Hoof, they're currently interchangeable with horsemen. If it were me (and it's not, I know), I'd take away all of your horse-mounted units' Mountainwalk ability, and just give it to the yaks, which I would then make "No need to Eat" (to better represent the Tibetan treasure-trove that is a yak), and give Stealth (0) to-along with a Gold-hike.

Yeah, I already had remover mountain survival from cavalry, so I agree entirelly , but NNE for a yack ? I would give it supplybonus instead (It eat, but less than a horse, and is a potential source of food). Stealthy yack ? Don't know...

"Hey, man, is it a yack I've just seem ?" "Yeah, and what ? Everybody knows that we Abysians/Agarthan/jotuns/Bandar/(fill in with your favorite nation name) have huge herds of yacks, so it's all normal to see yacks here..."

No, I guess even a bakemeno is not stupid enough not to note a yack...

BTW, I'll PERHAPS include a Yack summon... just for fun (and to use some yack graphics I initially made for yack-riders)...

[HoneyBadger]

Well...I don't think crossbows are out of place in MA. And if you *don't* give them crossbows in some form, that'll be a bit of a handicap for them... I'm all for them having crossbows, and if they're non-capital, they would be a great defensive boost for fortresses even with the movement penalty.

And I was thinking more along the lines of yaks not themselves being stealthy, but rather yak+rider equals a unit that can choose the harshest terrain, and then spring out at an enemy, undetected, from a direction they might not have thought possible. More like a stealthy, clever raider, than an invisible yak The yak by itself wouldn't have any Stealth, and I don't think the elite calvalry should get stealth, even if they're riding a yak--only that specific unit.

As far as NNE goes-my logic was that the rider would be living off the yak, so no need to eat for that rider, other than yak milk, which I understand is very nutritious. Take the rider away, and the yak, since it doesn't have to work so hard carrying the rider around, can then not only feed itself, but produce enough milk to feed 2 other people, instead of just 1.