Death scale on Abyssia

[Sombre]

Abysia is not immune to the income malus from death scales.

Afaik it is ONLY immune to the malus to supplies.

I believe it is generally accepted that the ability is pretty much rubbish and does more harm than good by tricking new players into taking death scales with Abysia, the very nation which benefits most from growth.

[vfb]

From my testing, EA and MA Abysia are immune to any income effects from death/growth scales at all. They get penalized with death-3 income no matter what death/growth scales you take.

Try it out: create a game with MA Arco and MA Aby. Arco has neutral scales and Grow-3, Aby has neutral and Heat-3 + Grow-3. MA Arco will have about 415 income. MA Aby will have about 345. (This is CB, so 3% per tick).

Now try a game with MA Aby and Heat-3 + Death-3. Again, you get 345.

So, sucks to be Aby.

With grow-3 you're paying 240 design points for no extra income other than that eventually generated by the extra pop you get. Of course, the growth does help your mages, and also keeps some people around you you can maintain blood slave income without invading your neighbors like a crazy man.

Personally though, I'd prefer to be the crazy man.

[Sombre]

What the hell? They get auto death 3 income?

Well forgive my earlier statement. I tested it a while ago by taking death 3, saw the lower income and clearly I came to the wrong conclusion. I'd never investigated their income under growth 3.

Man,... sucks to be Aby.

Even so, I still wouldn't take death 3. The damage dealt to your mages is just too huge.

[Endoperez]

Easiest way to test: mod the Growth/Death scale income bonus/penalty and see if Abysia's income changes even when they have neutral growth.

[WraithLord]

I think vfb is correct. At least this is how I understood the description. Its not like growth is not possible for Aby, its that they gain much less from it than the other nations. Optimization and synergy being the key words.

One possible fix to Aby is conj1/conj0 national spell that summon soldier like units. This way they will depend less on income for early start. Later in game luck/blood/expansion will allow Aby to live with sucky income.

[vfb]

Well, they've got spectral infantry. It's just that they don't have the paths!

You can get lucky with the F/D hero though ... but that only seems to happen to me in SP.

With CB1.3 you can try expanding without units. A Warlock Apprentice can take a province every turn it is supplied with blood slaves. Research Blood1 immediately (a great sage helps) and just use a couple calls of Call Lesser Horror (3 slaves). Together with your starting army you'll expand quite nicely. Barbarians and Elephants are tough to scare off because they kill your horrors too fast. Shoot the barbarians with indy archers and hire Beast trainers for any elephants.

You can do this with the following scales:
Order 3 Sloth 3 Heat 3 Death 3 Fortune 3 Drain 2

You won't be hiring much in the way of sacreds! But Warlock Apprentices can also cast Body Ethereal on Salamanders, and Demonbreds can support with Fire Blast.

So, CBM only: Blood-1, Evo-2, Alt-3, Const-6. Const-6 is for the lanterns mainly, but boots of youth don't hurt. A great sage can give you great diversity like:
Fire 3 Air 3 Water 3 Earth 4 Astral 4 Death 4 Nature 4 Blood 3

That's 44RP in drain 2. Shrouds at Const-4 give you regen for diseased Warlocks, and even at Const-2 you can make nice fiery toys for your indy commanders to blast away with.

Sacrifice with cheaper H2s to spread your dominion.

Without Lesser Horrors at Blood-1, I guess you could try Evo-2, Alt-3, Const-6. Use salamanders behind a few shields with supporting Star Fires and Fire Blasts. But you'll lose quite a few lizards without Body Eth, and you need a critical mass to defeat the enemy before you run out of gas.

[WaltF4]

ver3.21 EA Abysia gets the full income effect of growth/death scales if the equation for income on page 37 of the manual is correct. I tested by starting games with different growth/death scales and comparing the income of the capitol on "default" ground.

H3 only, pop 29730, and cave castle gave 341 gold
H3D3, pop 30050, and cave castle gave 324 gold
H3G3, pop 30210, and cave castle gave 367 gold

Solving for the (dominion scale modifiers) gives:
H3 only: (dominion scale modifiers) = 0.997
H3D3: (dominion scale modifiers) = 0.937
H3G3: (dominion scale modifiers) = 1.056

[Endoperez]

I just got home and tested Abysia with growth/death income bonus modded to 100%. Growth 3 nation: over 1000 gp/turn; MA Abysia with neutral scales: about 380 go/turn; Death 3 nation: 0 gp/turn.
Result: Abysia doesn't get automatic income malus that's linked to Death 3.

The starting fortress of EA and MA Abysia have admin value of just 30, so they will get less income from their capital than, say, MA Tien Chi, with admin 60 fort.

[vfb]

Oh, that's another thing about Aby. They even have a super-horrible home castle, with only 30 Admin, for extra-low income.

Here's a comparison with Agartha, who, not surprisingly, are also teh suck:

EA
Grow-3 29660 360 (Agartha Grow-3 29860 362)
Death-3 30080 324 (Agartha Death-3 29560 318)

MA
Grow-3 30370 348 (Agartha Grow-3 30490 369)
Death-3 29830 342 (Agartha Death-3 29518 310)

So, thanks WaltF4!

It appears EA Aby income is affected by growth-death scales like everyone else. I had only played with MA Aby, and I assumed EA was the same.

MA Aby actually does get a neutral growth/death income modifier, independent of the scales they take. But their castle really sucks, so it looks like they get less.

Edit: Thanks Endo too ... I was off testing when you posted. Actually, I think you may have written a post about all this about a year ago!

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by vfb

Oh, that's another thing about Aby. They even have a super-horrible home castle, with only 30 Admin, for extra-low income.

Here's a comparison with Agartha, who, not surprisingly, are also teh suck:

EA-Argartha is noooo way the suck. If you pardon the expression from a subterranean dweller - they rock! And they rock hard. Ya just gotta know how to play em. And like a lot of races, it isn't immediately obvious = ).