Modders, Race Creators and TDM-creators

Taera · #1 May 26th, 2002, 07:14 PM

OK.
Time for me to ramble and complain a little.

OK, all of you have done great work at making the AI interesting enemy to play. But all, or at least most of you, have missed an important part of the game. Fun.

All, i stress, _ALL_ races with no racial technology, and those too, use only CSM, PPB and NSP. All of them.

Where is the fun? I would realy like to see the races using variety of weapons, including torpedoes, plasma missiles, High-Energy weapons, tractors and repulsers, engine damaging, gravitational and warp weapons.

None of all the races use these weapons. At least i've never seen any race using torpedoes or gravitational weapons.

TDM-mod is nice. The races are in fact much more intilligent, but this is not any fun to see 30 races all using PPB/NSP weapons.

This is just a request to think about something more original. I realy ask the TDM autors to redo their races and make their weapons more interesting.

TerranC · #2 May 26th, 2002, 08:02 PM

Maybe copy data files from the Amon'krie race files?

They seem to use torpedoes and graviton hellbores a lot.

Alpha Kodiak · #3 May 26th, 2002, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taera:
OK.
Time for me to ramble and complain a little.

OK, all of you have done great work at making the AI interesting enemy to play. But all, or at least most of you, have missed an important part of the game. Fun.

All, i stress, _ALL_ races with no racial technology, and those too, use only CSM, PPB and NSP. All of them.

Where is the fun? I would realy like to see the races using variety of weapons, including torpedoes, plasma missiles, High-Energy weapons, tractors and repulsers, engine damaging, gravitational and warp weapons.

None of all the races use these weapons. At least i've never seen any race using torpedoes or gravitational weapons.

TDM-mod is nice. The races are in fact much more intilligent, but this is not any fun to see 30 races all using PPB/NSP weapons.

This is just a request to think about something more original. I realy ask the TDM autors to redo their races and make their weapons more interesting.

I agree with wanting variety. I want to try some different things when I get back to a normal race. Trouble is, I am making the rounds through all of the racial techs first. I'm about to release a Psychic race, then I'm going to put together a Temporal race. After that I have a Crystaline race to do by request.

The reason that you see such weapon similarity is because it is the best weapon combination you can give an AI. We didn't coordinate at all. Each person set out to create the most effective AI they could, and all identified basically the same weapons approach independently.

Understand that we are doing this for fun as well. Going back and redoing a race because there are similar races out there would not be fun, at least not for me. I want to build new AIs, while tweaking the old ones once in a while to bring them up to standard.

If you want variety, try out some of the different AIs I have put together, and I think you will find plenty of variety.

Rage
Vaxin
Star Empire of Romii
Angelican Regency
Neo-Canadian Empire
Vandron
Hevordah
Tylmai

As best I remember, four of those races use PPBs, two use APBs and two use organic weapons. One of the PPB races also mixes in crystalline weapons.

Remember also that there is much more to an AI than what weapons they use. How they interact politically, whether they use troops, how much stellar manipulation they use, and many other decisions go into the creation of an AI.

As I said earlier, I want to see variety. I also want to build AIs that are effective. Building a pushover AI would not be fun. I will experiment with other weapon combos (the Psychic race about to come out uses Psychic weapons and engine killers.) Just don't expect a new normal race from me for a while, as I have too many other irons in the fire. And, no, I will not be going back to rearchitect an existing race. They all work pretty well as they are.

Taera · #4 May 26th, 2002, 08:43 PM

hmm, i see your point Alpha Kodiak.
But still.
In my Last game i put in 6 TDM races, one my own AI and one for myself.
OK, so i got in a war with EA which realy uses PPB and then goes straight to the highest levels of APB.
I've switched to my AI (Taera) and looked at their enemy designs. What do i find?
*Jraenar that use PPB and then NSP
(Umm... i have to fix myself, they research high-energy weapons late on)
*Praetorian who use PPB and then NSP
*Toron that too first use PPB heavily and then start with APB

Observed similar cases in most of my games.
I realy would like to see races that go straight away to torpedoe or gravity weapons. Then again their AI just might not be as great as those Big Evil AIs that use PPB with NSP, but the single-played game will be tonns more interesting then.

Tell me, is the situation is the same on PBW games? Do all the players go straight away to PPB and NSP?

oleg · #5 May 26th, 2002, 08:45 PM

Once MM balance PPB, there will be more interesting designs. That is for sure. I'm myself itching to make some interesting races. But what for ? They will be dead meat against optimized AI races and there will be *****ing from people arond how putiful and clueless is the race creator !

Taera · #6 May 26th, 2002, 08:49 PM

oleg: yes, but still - did MM ever say they actually will balance the PPB?

If you ever create any AI that uses "unconventional" weapons, please let me know - i'll be more than happy to play with them

Only i dont have gold...

Mephisto · #7 May 26th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Don't just count the main weapons. The EA will use shield depleters, the Torons will use allegiance subverters. If you want a somewhat competitive race you just have to use some weapons. There is no point using missiles in late game for example. Temporal weapons are quite good but I do not have a temporal race. Psychic weapons are quite weak unfortunately. The Narn use the talisman so they have to use "maximum weapons range" so they have to use APBs. What would you suggest?

Taera · #8 May 26th, 2002, 11:58 PM

Still, many races could use different weapons for their ships. And psychic is not weak, is one of the strongest tech trees in the game IMO. or at least in the beginning and middle game.

Alpha Kodiak · #9 May 27th, 2002, 12:53 AM

Check out my newly posted Azorani and see what you think. They might give you a little variety.

Deathstalker · #10 May 27th, 2002, 12:56 AM

Check out some AI's I did awhile back (for non-gold). Most reside at Kuat Drive Yards but some can be found on the PBW site as well as others.

StarWars Empire I (sw-emp1): Meason BLasters and CSM moving to Plasma Missiles and High Energy weapons

Y'Gathian FreeStates: Combination Organic/Crystalline weapons.

EEEvil Empire: DUC's, Ripper Beams, Wave Motion Guns, Kamakazie ships,

StarWars Empire II (sw-emp2): Meason BLasters, Wormhole Guns.

Rebels (sw-reb): Meason BLasters and Anti-matter/Quantum Torps,

Sw-Emp3 (Thrawn): Meason/Torps.

Red Gauntlets Merc Unit: DUC's, HighEnergy Discharge.

Nostropholo: Combo of Organic/Crystalline wpns.

Cephalopeian Kingdom: Psychic/Organic combo.

Also check out Atraikius's Orks, they use Torps, missiles, duc's and a host of other stuff, as well as earlier Versions of his Zorians which have almost every ship doubling as a carrier

. The Angelic Regency is also good, relying almost totally on DUC's, and the Vikings are also quite varied in their ship designs.

There are some damn fine 'different' AI's out there. The Rage just started the cycle of PPB ruling the roost. Then the Aquilaeians came along and Ionic weapons ruled the day (along with the Pyrochette). To be honest I too miss the days of facing the Krill/Jraenar/Terrans coming at me with massive missile fleets.