Repair vehicle and units

[m113apc]

The longest salvage operation I have been a part of took almost 48h.
It was a Leopard 1 MBT back in 1999.

We used two Leopard1 ARV to winch with and 4 Leopard 1 MBT as anchorage, with a couple of big trees as well to anchor the 4 MBTs.

If I don’t remember wrong, we winched with 170t (total, with all safeties off), then we got it out of the march. It was so deep, that we only saw the tip of the cannon, and the cannon was elevated to the maximum, so we had to send down engineer divers to hook up the wires.

I saw it went down, all the crew made it, the driver and loader was send to hospital with march water in their lungs, they had to wait to the compartment was filled with water, before they could evacuate through the commanders hatch. It took about two long minutes before we saw them in the water. An ice block blocked the loaders hatch.

Good it was peacetime exercise.

Anyway, this was an interesting topic with many good answers and stories.
Thx...

[RERomine]

How did they end up in the water in the first place? Did you see it happen or just part of the recovery operation?

[gingertanker]

saw one that took about that long. Merkava Mk 2 stuck in mud, another came in to tow it, got stuck. A D9 Dozer came to help and got stuc kas well. Seriously bad mud that was. They brought another D9 that pulled out the first D9, than both towed each tank out.

[Marek_Tucan]

Inj my father's unit (Signal Corps) once a ZIL (carrying generator) got stuck, not even in the mud, but in spot of soft ground. The rest of the column were Praga V3S medium trucks, no chance to pull the ZIL out. They borrowed from local agricultural combine a heavy tractor (for work in forests, that big beast with a joint in the middle and four big wheels), tried to pull the ZIL out, instead the tractor broke at the joint. They had to wait for recovery Tatra 815 (8x8)...

[m113apc]

How did they end up in the water in the first place? Did you see it happen or just part of the recovery operation?

I saw it happen, as the fourth vehicle in a column with our ARV, we drove over a little top, and saw it went down, and heard the screaming over the radio.

It was the number 3 tank in a platoon.
The number 3 and 4 tanks are manned with the most inexperienced commanders. He didn’t read the terrain proper, or the map.
That’s why.

We lost a crewmember on a similar accident two years ago, on one of our Leopard 2 MBT.

[RERomine]

One thing a lot of people don't realise is how dangerous tanks can be even, in training exercises.

We had one crewman leaning over the coax ammo box which is attached to the side of the main gun next to the breach when someone in the gunners position max depressed the gun. Tube goes down, breach and ammo box go up, resulting in a soldier with a fractured back. He was slammed into the top of the turret. One crewman just fell off the tank. He was behind me. I turn to look away and when I looked back, he was on the ground. He ended up with a dislocated elbow. At least in these cases, both survived. I've heard other stories where crewman didn't survive, but haven't personally seen anything like that.

[PanzerBob]

Every large training Exercise I was ever involved with always seemed to have deaths involved. In the 70's as a kid NATO Forces were always loosing people in everything from fighters slamming into hills to troops being run over in the middle of the night. You get enough "hardware" crashing around the country side something is going to give.

Bob out

[mosborne]

Hi:
I am in favor of some new feature dealing with immobilized vehicles.

Perhaps some ground rules are needed.

a) Aid vehicle has to be in same hex as damaged vehicle.
b) Weapon fire damage is not repairable in the field. Likewise, building collapse should be treated as weapon fire damage. So vehicles damage because of these events can not be repaired, but can be moved.
c) Any vehicle can be moved.
d) Moving damaged vehicles require movement points
e) Amount of movement points is a function of vehicle weight, damage and terrain. Movement cost can exceed the cost of any one aid vehicle, thus requiring more than one aid vehicle to move one hex.
f) Aid vehicle is subject to same conditions that incapacitated the damaged vehicle. For example, if damaged vehicle is in mud, aid vehicle can get stuck in mud too!
g) Aid vehicle(s) combined weigh must be x% larger than damage vehicle. Where x is greater than 100 and represents the anchoring required.
h) Time to move starts at 2 turns plus random roll during an aid vehicle unsuppressed(0) subsequent turn.
i) Subsequent movement of damage vehicle requires all same vehicles remain together (formation move 1 hex). If any aid vehicle departs, the process starts over again.
j) Movement can only continue as long as all aid vehicles involved remained unsuppressed. Movement is per (e) above.
k) If damage to vehicle was due to terrain, then once damaged vehicle has been removed from inflicting terrain, the damage is removed and the vehicle returns to operation.

There is a bit of programming involved in this as I sure the designers see right off.

Some simplication is possible by just designating any vehicle larger than the damage one as capable of being a towing vehicle and only one towing vehicle is needed for any terrain. And maybe just allow one hex move on the successful die roll.

Sorry to be so long
Thanks

[RERomine]

There is still the problem with the nature of the immobilization to consider. If you look at the picture I embedded on the first page, that would be considered a terrain immobilization, but that certainly wouldn't be returned to operational condition during the a game battle, even after you got it out of the ditch. Another post mentioned the 48 hour recovery of a Leo 1. Again, a terrain immobilization if I understand it correctly. In game terms, when it's a terrain immobilization, the unit is just immobilized, somehow. Flat tire, broken track, high centered, mired in mud, rolled, etc. How is it is immobilized is up to our imagination. Unless that is defined, it's not really possible to say it could be returned to action once removed from the hex the immobilization occurred in.

In game terms, some other aspects are already possible. There are some tank transports available and immobilized units can be moved. The transports do have to be in the same hex as the tank to be transported to load them. Loading tanks, especially immobilized ones, is quicker than it should be, but I wouldn't change the code for that rare instance. Tank transports aren't going to come up unless the area is secured, unless you want to risk getting it destroyed, so you usually have all the time in the world to load it. Who cares if it takes only one game turn?

Building immobilizations are a another one of those that don't provide enough specifics on how they got stuck. Did they break a track or are they in some poor soul's basement? If in the basement, they shouldn't even be able to fire, unless it's at rats.

Just based on how things work, we can draw conclusions from about the immobilizations. Since they can still fire, they aren't in someone's basement, rolled or submerged up to the commander's hatch with a barrel full of water and mud. It still leaves some possibilities that aren't quick fixes such as mired or broken track/flat tire. The quickest fix I can think of is for a high centered tank. A quick pull or push might solve that problem. With terrain immobilizations, if you are careful, they can be avoided. This is one thing that, IMO, really wouldn't add much to the game if it was changed. If we start doing this, then maybe we start wanting to look at excessive speed breakdowns, burned out transmissions and simple blown engines. All realistic, but do we want to fight a battle or open a tank repair depot?

[Imp]

Mosborne pretty sure this has been covered several times (try a search) & like helo suggestions I think you are stepping outside whats possible.
This is an old programe & units cannot realy interact with each other.
We have ammo supply & loading other units & thats about it as far as I know a vehicle cannot give some of its MP to another unit & move it.

As a workaround you cannot repair stuff but you could simulate a repair vehicle that could move an immobile vehicle by giving it the carry capacity to lift it.
This will not work for destroyed vehicles as I do not think you can interact with wrecks.

Barring weapon jams about the only thing that could probably be fixed in the scope of the game is immobilisation due to getting stuck in mud or water obstacle. Others like mines rough would probably have caused a thrown track or some such. Even then I would think pulling 50 tons of metal out might take a while by the time you take into account things like careful approach of rescuer so he does not need help to.
Just read the rest of this thread maybe you should