Questions that have nothing to do with MP games I have joined

[llamabeast]

2. The order doesn't matter, and the effects are indeed cumulative. The combination makes arrows fairly useless.

3. Bug, or rather an error in the description. In Dominions 2, water mages were able to lead people into the sea. That's not the case in Dominions 3.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by rabelais

3. azure mage's text claim they can extend the waterbreathing ability to their followers, but it does not appear to be so... bug?

As llamabeast said, no longer true. Just pretend it means "can grant waterbreathing to their followers, given enough research and enough gems to forge a Sea King's Goblet."

I.e. "I promise, I'm working on it! Just a few more turns, guys."

-Max

[thejeff]

Aren't there still a few mages who do grant waterbreathing?

[Gandalf Parker]

I think there is a lady deity that does

[vfb]

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater:

Traitor King (#622, Atlantis hero) 10
Limne, Queen of the Lake (#908, summon) 37
Seer King (#558, Atlantis hero) 10
Sea King (#580, summon) 15
Beregina (#1955, Bogarus summon) 10
Naiad (#1226, summon) 15
King of the Deep (#322, Atlantis recruitable) 10
Angakok (#1618, Atlantis recruitable) 10
King of Rain (#1420, Micltan summon) 10
Son of the Sea (#961, pretender) 37
Sea Father (#529, magic site recruitable) 10
Capricorn (#1038, Oceania recruitable) 25
Son of the Dragon King (#1580, Jomon hero) 20
Forgiving Father (#2083, Atlantis recruitable) 5
Dagon (#109, pretender) 25
Mage of the Deep (#1692, Atlantis recruitable) 5
Lady of Fortunes (#601, unavailable pretender) 12
Lady of Fortune (#1344, pretender) 22
Capricorn (#1039, Oceania recruitable) 25
Rusalka (#1954, Bogarus summon) 5

[lch]

Originally Posted by vfb

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater

Actually, you need to multiply your numbers by two because you seem to have used human-sized (size 2) units. The Lady of Fortunes (601) has a value of 30, too, and the Lady of Fortune (1344) a value of 50. But they're not (semi-)amphibian, so maybe their own size counts towards this limit, too.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Yes, that is true, the second is worth less in proportion. But not in game terms. Having a nation with better researchers is always good. And because you always recruit at least one mage each turn for research. The relatively small additional +1 bonus grows to a large bonus in the end.

Research is so important for getting into the end-game, that having a large bonus on research, or a large penalty. Determines if you get there faster or slower.

If we both play nations with the same kind of national mages, the one with the highest magic rating will probably get the end game spells quicker. In that regard having a large bonus (from magic-3) or a large penalty (from drain-3) should be worth more points than only the lesser penalties or bonuses.

Higher magic also makes the indy mages (such as shamans) better suited for research. And when you look at this combined with multiple fortresses, the little proportional bonus of the second +1 grows to a very large bonus.

The same with drain-3. Your research is really down the drain. Most indy mages only give 1 rp. So are totally not worth it.

The gold cost per rp is also decreased with a higher magic. With Shinuyama for example, normally you pay 300 for a 10 rp unit. so that is 30 for each 1 rp. with a 1 gold upkeep for each rp.
Drain -3 -> 37,5 per rp, 1,25 gold upkeep
Drain -2 -1 -> 33,33 per rp, 1,11 gold upkeep
Magic +1 +2 -> 27,27 per rp, 0.90 gold upkeep
Magic +3 -> 25 per rp, 0.83 gold upkeep

So if you buy 10 of them, one each turn, after eleven turns you have the following totals rp (buying ten, one each turn for eleven turns gives you 55 turns of research).
-3 : 440
-2 -1 : 495
+0 : 550
+1 +2 : 605
+3 : 660

So having a high magic rating gives you a very large research bonus over nations not having a large magic bonus. Having a leading position in research should be worth more points.

And taking drain-3 is always taking a large risk. If a nation takes -3 and some other nation has +3, you have a very large research gap very fast.

(This is also why imho LA-ermor shouldn't take drain. They cannot recruit mages (no gold), only summon them. The mages are in short supply, so if you get behind in research it is almost impossible to close the gap. And you really need to get the late game/mid game spells with LA-ermor).

So while proportionally the first +1 might be worth more, in strategic terms the second +1 is imho worth more. It gives you a large cumulative advantage, and it increases the already existing advantage.

Edit:
Total RP after 21 turns for different nations (20 recruited base 10 rp mages) (20 recruited base 6 rp mages (seems to be the average of recruitable mages))
-3 1760 880
-2 1980 1100
+0 2200 1320
+1 2420 1540
+3 2640 1760
220 mage turns of research.

There are quite a few factors that are overlooked here.

The chance of getting a dominion scale flip is related to the difference between the present scale, and ideal scale. So a Magic2 will flip to magic 1 far faster than magic 1 will.

Secondly; Each step in the magic scale adds or subtracts fatigue to casters as well as the bonus/malus to rp and save.
And D2/m2 values do change over d1/m1.

Finally, hypothetically, some random events are unlocked with M levels.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by lch

Actually, you need to multiply your numbers by two because you seem to have used human-sized (size 2) units. The Lady of Fortunes (601) has a value of 30, too, and the Lady of Fortune (1344) a value of 50. But they're not (semi-)amphibian, so maybe their own size counts towards this limit, too.

Guilty as charged! I did test using humans. I think you're right, the Fortune Ladies are using some of the water-breathing ability for themselves.

Also I only tested water mages. It's possible that there are non-water mages that also grant water breathing.

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by vfb

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater:

[...]
Angakok (#1618, Atlantis recruitable) 10
[...]
Forgiving Father (#2083, Atlantis recruitable) 5
[...]

Aaargh! And to think I was forging +breathing equipment for them to tote some archers across sea lanes...does it say this somewhere in their description and I'm just blind? (away from game at the moment)

Of course, 5/10 human sized followers is not a lot, considering their total leadership.

[rabelais]

I just tried to move some cavalry underwater with a lady of fortune, and failed miserably... not even one would go...are those CBM numbers or something?


Rabe, who apparently, can't swim.


Nevermind, it appears I can't tell the difference between a LoF and a MoR. So actually, I can't read.