If I were inclined to find amusement in all this I would but I don't but let's look as some of the "documented" evidence supplied so far and I have
NO intention of getting further involved with this beyond this post
Chucky has used the 'The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II' quote for these weapons before. He got it from
LINK (Jan 13, 2004 ( look at post 7 of 10 ) which is now just about 5 years old. I doubt he even owns the damn book. And his "set to work with bazookas against the flanks of the blinded tanks" quote is word for word what he posted last year and it's always tiresome to read the same thing over and over in a crusade to make a "point".
Cross has already stated that there is a very WIDE gap in "expert" opinion regarding these weapons and they are all over 60 years old ( compare and contrast all the "informed " opinion on the MBT thread about modern weapons performance ! ) If I were more inclined to laughter I'd be laughing all the time reading this stuff
So far, as stated above here's the range of penetration figures for the four weapons under discussion
PIAT--- anywhere from 75mm - 125mm
Bazooka figures were exactly the same with a range of 75mm - 125mm
"Panzershreck PEN was listed from 160-230mm by all sources, except I think one"
"The Panzerfaust was listed from 140-200mm, but the 140mm was for the early 'Klien?' model." ( Yes the 140mm pen is for the Klein)
So somewhere in all that crap is the "truth" and the funny thing is each value was put down by someone claiming to be an "expert"
Since Chuck likes Ian Hogg ( and for anyone who doesn't know who Hogg was he was one of the few people holding the tile of "Master gunner" of the RA and was an assistant instructor of ammunition at Sandhurst. He's dead now so we can't ask him where the data came from ) I have a book written by Hogg and it is actually IN MY HANDS.
ALL QUOTES from ------ "Grenades and Mortars" Ian Hogg January 1974
PIAT: The British Projector Anti-tank. This shoulder fired weapons, using a 3 lb projectile, is capable of a penetration of 4 inches of armour at a range of 50 yards". He has a rather long passage devoted to the joys of cocking the weapons summed up with the line..." The first move was to cock it, a process which probably accounted form more slipped discs and sprained backs than any other wartime evolution.................anyone under 5 foot six inches was laying himself open to injury trying to cock a PIAT. An even more entertaining pastime was trying to cock it lying on your back in a slit trench" and ............." Once you got used to it, and knew how to hold it, wasn't unpleasant to fire, but it was a trifle odd to be able to look up after the bang and see the bomb wobbling slowly through the air until it struck it's target"
Panzerfaust : " The first model issued.....known as the Panzerfaust 30 Klein" .....maximum range of 30 metres.........was a highly effective weapon with a 4 inch diameter warhead which could penetrate 140mm or armour plate. This was replaced by an improved version using a better propellant and a larger (155mm) warhead capable of penetrating 200mm of armour. This also went into production in late 1943 as the panzerfaust 30........... Since the penetration of the '30' was considered to be adequate, further development now concentrated on improving range and accuracy. This led to the "Panzerfaust 60" that went into production in the summer of 1944.......then came the Panzerfaust 100 in November 1944 and the panzerfaust 150 in January 1945 ( only 100,000 being made ). Just for the record we decided a LONG time ago that there would be one panzerfaust modeled in the game otherwise we would run out of unit slots building infantry units as the weapon upgraded and that was when we only had 246 unit slots. It would be equally impossible today with 999
Panzershreck ( Panzerbuchse 54 )........" The principle difference between this and the American model was that the Germans used a small magneto in the pistol grip to develop the firing current, instead of the two torch batteries used in the bazooka but the calibre was larger - 3.5 inches - giving a more powerful warhead. The design of the rocket motor was less efficient leading to a shorter effective range of only 165 yards, so the firer had to be pretty iron-nerved. But the penetration ability was OVER EIGHT INCHES( EMPHASIS MINE ) which meant that any allied tank could be defeated if the operator could pick his point of aim. Officially called the Racketen Panzerbuchse 54 it was finally known by the common soldiery as Ofenrohr or "stovepipe", largely due to it's appearance and the fact that a six-foot flame came out the back when it was fired
Bazooka ( remember------- I'm still quote Ian V Hogg here ) ........." a simple tube which the operator placed on his shoulder and pointed at the target by and equally simple sight. A fin stabilized rocket with a hollow charge warhead was placed into the tail end of the tube and fired electrically. The fuse armed during the rockets flight and on striking the target COULD PIERCE ABOUT FIVE INCHES OF ARMOUR PLATE( EMPHASIS MINE ). The velocity was low - 265 feet per second- AND THE RANGE WAS SHORT - A MAXIMUM OF 600 YARDS- SO IT PAID THE FIRER TO KEEP COOL AND WAIT UNTIL THE TARGET WAS CLOSE BEFORE PRESSING THE TRIGGER ( EMPHASIS MINE ). But with these limitations understood the 2.36 inch bazooka was a highly effective weapon. The story has often been told of the first time it was used in action in the Kasserine Pass battle in North Africa, when a somewhat disgruntled German Officer said he decided to surrender since there seemed little point in attempting to press forward in the face of fire from a 155mm gun"
Now compare and contrast that with the load of info found in all the other posts on this subject and compare it to this info found in the " Complete encyclopaedia of Weapons of World War II" by Chris Bishop
I'll make this brief
PIAT........"A form of Spigot mortar that used a powerful central spring to fire it's projectile from a front mounted 'trough'. It was not a popular weapon, but it could kill tanks. All this book says about the PIAT's penetration is ......."it fired a useful grenade that could penetrate any contemporary tanks protection". Useless to the "grognard" types who want exact information but it DOES say that " Pulling the trigger released a powerful spring and this spring enabled the spigot to strike the grenades propelling charge to fire it from the trough. The propelling charge also recocked the main spring ready for a second grenade to be loaded. Range is listed as "combat" 110 yards. Maximum 370 yards
Panzerfaust : No real different info than quoted above except this book says the Panzerfaust 150 never got past the testing stage and was never issued
Panzershreck: Maximum range 165 yards and " The later rockets could penetrate up to 160mm (6.3 in ) of tank armour
Bazooka : Armour penetration 119.4 mm ( 4.7 in ) at 0 degrees. Range : Maximum 650 yards
So what to make of all this conflicting data ??
Well I know that no matter what I do somebody will come along and say it's wrong eventually
However.
PIAT------- OK as is. Anyone wanting to debate the accuracy is free to do so. I'm free to make up my own mind as to the accuracy of weapon that fires a "bomb wobbling slowly through the air until it struck it's target"
Panzerfaust ------- OK as is
Panzershreck------- FWIW the range for all Panzershreck in the game are 4 hexes EXCEPT Germany. Before the paranoids start pointing fingers it's NOT deliberate it's just a garden variety screw up. In DOS version 7 all were made range 4 but some reason ( I could guess all day and still not be 100 % certain I'm right.perhaps a test was run and the range not reset ?? ) the Windows versions ended up with it set to 6 for Germany and 4 for everyone else and it's been that way ever since . All in all 3 is probably a better range and I've made a note of that. ( Penetration is either 160 or 200 mm. Take your pick of experts. I'll make a note of that as well but I'm inclined to the 200 mm figure. Certainly not the 100mm nonsense. Germany has 20 pen and all the rest have 23 so that will be looked at too and the 23 knocked down to at least 20 for certain
Bazooka. Certainly a lot of people seem to think the range should be reduced even though we have it 1/3 the range often quoted AND we have a penetration figure under both what Hogg is quoted as giving it ( in a real book ) and what Bishop is quoted as giving it so we could already be accused of under cutting it's actual abilities. 4 hexes range, given what is widely published actually seems low even though that might be a bit high for practical purposes in combat. Penetration of 10 is obviously debateable but so is just about everything else. That penetration figure pops up over and over and over
One final note. The hole a HEAT round actually burns through armour is not as important as the jet of superheated gasses that enter the fighting compartment and, I quote a book I read years ago , spreads the crew around the inside of the tank like jam. I challenge anyone to put their hand in front of an acetylene torch then debate whether a 1/4 inch or half inch orifice makes that much of a difference to living flesh
Also note that Hogg says that the bazooka "The fuse armed during the rockets flight " then compare that to the quote about " one officer fired 22 bazooka rounds at about 15 yards range against the rear of the t34 tanks where their armor is weakest, but to no effect" then ask....maybe...... just maybe....... was he was standing too close for the fuse to properly arm or , as Claus noted, the angle of the rear armour may have been just right to deflect the bomb.
Don
Re: Infantry AT Weapons
Re: Infantry AT Weapons
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