Best Turmoil Luck Nations

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

I'm guessing that you aren't suggesting that turmoil should be taken along with the luck. Arco has some fairly gold-intensive recruits. If you are also taking some sloth for the Philosophers, then I think your ability to raise an army would be quite impaired. I guess it depends on how much of each scale you take though.

Turmoil 1 is absolutely fine with EA Arcoscephale, but I find that turmoil 3 works very well, too. Of course, you have to factor in gold shortage in your overall strategy.

It is not a good idea to combine it with death or drain, but something like Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Growth 3, Luck 3 and Magic 3 works quite well.

I'll agree that Arco can generally make good use of the extra gems, but if you are cranking out Mystics and an Oreiad or two and have researched Thaum-2, then you should be able to site search for steady, rather than sporadic, incomes in earth, fire, nature, and air - and water if you have the Voices and astral with Evo-2.

It is not an either-or situation. With luck you get extra gems on top of what your excellent site-searching provides. Also, luck is quite good at providing the starting gems necessary to start using the site-searching spells. In all probability you will have to send a mage or two searching manually, but luck will save you the trouble in one or more paths.

[KissBlade]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I did, and the lack of gold was a very nasty surprise indeed.

HAha, yes, that's what I was thinking myself. >.< Surprised at how much of a bag of crap Turmoil/luck can really be.

[analytic_kernel]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

Turmoil 1 is absolutely fine with EA Arcoscephale, but I find that turmoil 3 works very well, too. Of course, you have to factor in gold shortage in your overall strategy.

It is not a good idea to combine it with death or drain, but something like Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Growth 3, Luck 3 and Magic 3 works quite well.

I'm not criticizing your scale choices, but have you had success attributable to these scales in MP games? Also, would I be correct to assume that you use an awake SC pretender to aid early expansion, since Turmoil 3, Sloth 3 is going to make it difficult to raise armies rapidly enough?

Originally Posted by Amorphous

It is not an either-or situation. With luck you get extra gems on top of what your excellent site-searching provides. Also, luck is quite good at providing the starting gems necessary to start using the site-searching spells. In all probability you will have to send a mage or two searching manually, but luck will save you the trouble in one or more paths.

You make a good point about luck sometimes providing gems to get your site searches going. But, you also need the right Mystics to perform the site searches. I agree with Agema that, with order, you will be able to raise forts quickly. Ergo, you will be able to recruit Mystics (as well as raise an army under sloth conditions) more rapidly. The more Mystics you recruit, the sooner you are likely to get the ones you need for site searching. Also, insofar as you have heavy research but difficulty fielding strong armies, you'll probably want Mystics on the battlefield sooner rather than later.

But, hey, it's all about trade-offs and different playing styles. If the scales you mention work for you, then great.

[Gandalf Parker]

I suppose if it was limited to MP then it might change some of the answers.

I tried Kailasa and didnt do too bad. Their cheap units can take some indept provinces to give you a start.

EA Yomi has many low-priced units, and many low-research summons which can allow gem-cost units to fill in for lack of national units.

Bogarus might do surprisingly well also. It has some fair 8 gold units, and many low-research summons.

Also keep in mind that along with this scales setting you can do fast expansion with low domain to stay ahead of the scales while you build indept armies

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

I'm not criticizing your scale choices, but have you had success attributable to these scales in MP games? Also, would I be correct to assume that you use an awake SC pretender to aid early expansion, since Turmoil 3, Sloth 3 is going to make it difficult to raise armies rapidly enough?

For what its worth I actually did fairly well in MP some time ago with this (tie with Niefelheim). Be advised, however, that none of us were very good, so I do not think that it means all that much.

That said, an awake SC is certainly an option, but I went with an awake S9 sacred statue. Thing is, expansion into independent provinces can be done very cheaply with peltasts, slingers and a minor contingent of chariots. Peltasts are cheap and carry javelins, so they are very good at routing independents - especially with the help of slingers. Chariots help with the heavy cavalry provinces, where peltasts have trouble doing enough damage. I do not get stellar expansion rates with this, but nevertheless it tends to land somewhere around 15 provinces late winter the first year.

And feel free to criticize my choice of scales as much as you think warranted. As I see it, it is a good way for me to learn.

You make a good point about luck sometimes providing gems to get your site searches going. But, you also need the right Mystics to perform the site searches. I agree with Agema that, with order, you will be able to raise forts quickly. Ergo, you will be able to recruit Mystics (as well as raise an army under sloth conditions) more rapidly. The more Mystics you recruit, the sooner you are likely to get the ones you need for site searching. Also, insofar as you have heavy research but difficulty fielding strong armies, you'll probably want Mystics on the battlefield sooner rather than later.

But, hey, it's all about trade-offs and different playing styles. If the scales you mention work for you, then great.

It is all about trade-offs, but it is not necessary to wait especially long for castles. You cannot count on being able to start a castle turn 4 with these scales, but there is absolutely no reason not to be able to start one turn 6. And when it is ready you can start pumping out mystics. There is also no reason not to be able to start building at least one additional castle during the first year. Your capital will build perhaps one Oreiad the first year, but other than that, it is philosophers all the way till year's end. And philosophers are so cheap they are almost free.

Of course, once you have two or three castles in addition to your capital (should be late year one or early year 2), mystic upkeep cost start becoming a problem, but here the high magic scales help. Priestesses provide 5rp/turn with this so they are quite cost effective - not very fast, but not excessively slow either. Mystics cast rituals, craft and fight. Other than possibly those with 5 magic picks, they do not research. This allows you to buy a reasonable number of mystics and an Oreiad each turn.

And this is without considering what you can get from luck-scales beside gems - heroes, magic items, gold, population, troops, extra mages and so on.

[Dorjan]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

The worst misconception, in my eyes, is that if you are taking 3Luck, you MUST take 3Turmoil in order to "maximize" your events.

You may be maximizing your events, but you are killing your baseline income to do so, and this is why the Luck vs Order debates always seem to point in favor of Order.

The idea is to get something for nothing. +3 in luck and +3 in turmoil will give you a base-line for "free" design wise. So it's not a "must" but it's a recommendation starting point.

I myself play Luck with order often and it works well if you can afford the design points. Lump of rock astral pretender usually works well if you are going for the income heavy nation but you must have a good "plan" for trying to up your magic elsewhere as you might be limiting yourself.

[squeezing]

What about MA C'tis ?? what does people think and why? would really appreciate some thoughts on this since I'm having a hard time deciding myself...

[Meglobob]

Originally Posted by squeezing

What about MA C'tis ?? what does people think and why? would really appreciate some thoughts on this since I'm having a hard time deciding myself...

Ma Ctis should be played with order 3 growth 3 with 9 or 10 dominion in my humble opinion. You get a gold bonus with Ma Ctis, so order, growth and high dominion make you the richest nation in the entire dominions universe.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Meglobob

Ma Ctis should be played with order 3 growth 3 with 9 or 10 dominion in my humble opinion. You get a gold bonus with Ma Ctis, so order, growth and high dominion make you the richest nation in the entire dominions universe.

I've played MA Ctis with Luck3/Turmoil3 and Dom9, and I don't quite agree with the above. MA C'tis with high dominion should IMO have any shortage of money ever, while the Dominion spreads like the plague (making offense so much easier), and the mancers get all the gems needed to get a jump-start on the random paths.

The bad thing is people seem to get a bit itchy when the Miasma dominion start spreading over the borders. Or rather, they seem to get a bit itchy *before* that happens