Mod: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.75 minor update

[Sombre]

A major issue with domsummon is that there are only 3 strengths - domsummon 1 produces a LOT of guys. I think it's actually 1 per point of dominion, give or take. Domsummon 2 produces half of a LOT, so if you're in dom 10 for instance (which is extreme, admittedly), you're talking something like 5 a turn. So with three Slann, not a crazy number at all in the early game, you'd be getting 15 free temple guard every turn. Then there's domsummon 20, which is 20 times less than domsummon 1. That's what the vampire queen has for summong vampires, for instance - you get one very occasionally in very strong dominion.

[llamabeast]

You could do autosummon. One temple guard each a turn might be quite nice.

[Sombre]

I suppose summon 1 or summon 2 with domsummon20 might produce the desired results. Or is summon only 1 and 5? Yeah I think it is.

Summon allies is another option (with a choice of 1,2,3,4 or 5) and though I am less inclined to go for that, it is more versatile and controlled (so you're never annoyed by having spawned troops).

[llamabeast]

Summon allies is annoying though.

You could make them upkeep free if you were worried about annoying spawning. Frankly I can't imagine ever being too annoyed by it though.

[rdonj]

Hmm... perhaps domsummon 5 but retaining the gold cost so they generate upkeep? Or even with an increased base cost. I still doubt you'd have nearly so many as you are likely to end up with under the current system and as kianduatha said it would make you more likely to purchase slann, particularly the 5th generation earlyish in the game.

[Sombre]

You mean summon 5? You can't do domsummon5, only 1 2 or 20.

If they had summon 5 you'd get say, 4 slann, and you'd be a total nightmare to invade. The upkeep isn't an issue if you get them killed quickly enough and since you could move the slann, you could have armies of temple guards that were impossible to wear down. You'd have to kill them all in one go and get the slann too. Very hard.

Plus if I give Slann auto summons of temple guard, I'd have to make them even more expensive (the Slann). Not so much with summon allies.

I am tempted to give dormant slann summon allies for temple guard, currently. That way you could build slann and set them dormant, wake them up when you need the magic more than the troops. Plus there's tension with the site searching you want them to do. Alternatively, could make temple guard cap only, or more expensive still.

One thing is for sure - Lizardmen are going to use a bless. I leave the option of no bless there for people who want it, but let's face it with all their most awesome stuff being holy, they really have to take the bless. This mere fact means sacreds will generally eclipse regulars, no matter how cool the regulars are. I appreciate that it's sort of sad that you don't feel you can build the specialist troops because that would mean missing out on sacreds however. That isn't an issue with summons. If temple guard were summoned by slann though, wouldn't people not build troops and instead keep saving up for slann? That doesn't sound right either.

[rdonj]

Er, I meant domsummon2, sorry. I figure domsummon would mechanically work out better anyway, since it would mean you can't be reinforced so easily when you're on the offensive. I suppose the main problem with this solution is that it's technically possible to have a higher temple guard income than you would with forts if you build up enough slann. If you made the fifth and the 4th generation slann domsummon20, and 3rd gen domsummon2 it might not be quite so bad.


However, making it work while dormant with summon allies is probably a better solution, if perhaps somewhat less attractive from a player's perspective. I don't completely like temple guard being cap only from a thematic perspective, but that would be the simplest way to balance them.

There is definitely no doubt that the lizards are a bless nation. I honestly don't think there's really much point to having better scales than I get on my imprisoned bless pretender anyway... and with the ability to summon useful sacred warriors with every magic path save death, you'd be crazy not to take advantage of that even if temple guard were cap only or otherwise rare. Anyway you are right that people massing slann to then mass temple guard would be pretty stupid.

It is a delicate issue for itza but I am sure however you ultimately decide to handle them it will be for the best.

[Fate]

I would not be opposed to a weaker dom summon (like summon 20). If you buffed the temple guard back up to their original stats, they would be worth it (and available by mid-game). It would slow down the early game a tad maybe, but not much as Itza has plenty of other excellent recruits.

Another option that I believe I mentioned already (as I like it) is to have Slann battle-summon 2-5 guards. I think this is quite thematic (the guards following the Slann) but it might also be a little unbalanced (assassinations would be harder, though they are already difficult, and it would be more feasible to tele-drop Slann on enemy PD). Maybe battle-summon 3 and domsummon 20?

[rdonj]

I don't know, battle summoning could be a bit too good due to assassination battles (as you already pointed out). There really don't seem to be very many good ways to kill slann off, plus again if you have a lot of slann in a province your enemy has to kill several dozen temple guard every battle to get to them.

I don't know, trying to do anything too fancy may just turn out to be too unfeasible for game purposes. Auto summons do tend to be hard to balance in mods.

[kianduatha]

The Summon Allies option seems like it would lead to a very strange path for Lizardmen--castles become less important than Slann for troop production. Think of it like this: A castle and temple now costs 2000 gold. Two fourth-generation Slann in comparison costs 1700, and would give you as many temple guards as a castle(at least 3/turn apiece, i presume?). Sure, you have the opportunity cost of two Slann--but wait, it was actually *cheaper* than making the castle in the first place. All you really lost was two commander recruits which probably would have otherwise been skink priests. And you can't really say you 'lost' the commander recruits either, because in actuality you got the best thing you could recruit. You didn't get the early-game usage of two skink priests, then.

Frankly, that sounds terrifying. I could see someone year two having only two castles maybe and over a dozen slann in stasis just pouring out hordes of temple guards, since it's actually more economical than the current strategy--and gives you buttloads of high astral mages for when you need them.

Domsummon is in comparison actually sounding more tame.