Best stand-off weapon for...

[Joe1960]

..entrenched infantry?

Playing the USMC vs. the Iranians in a long campaign in 2010.

Dread having to assault entrenched infantry or attempting to suppress/destroy entrenched crew served weapons.

Artillery (155mm), even a B-52 strike, don't do much.

Best results (err...only!) obtained by moving a M1A1 and my own infantry to point blank range and blasting them out.

I don't like to get so close if I can avoid it.

Am I missing a good stand-off weapon in the USMC inventory that will deal with entrenched enemies?

[Imp]

Err nope think WW1 heavy continous bombardment or storm the trenches preferably both is about it, some better arty but still need to plan & keep hiting, so concentrate on one area at a time rather than spreading the love.
On the arty going all big guns is in my view not the best way, they kill IF they hit but smaller stuff suppresses more & can risk keeping it going longer when your troops are near. So hit with a mix of to start & once ready to assault move heavys to next target

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Joe1960

..entrenched infantry?

Playing the USMC vs. the Iranians in a long campaign in 2010.

Dread having to assault entrenched infantry or attempting to suppress/destroy entrenched crew served weapons.

Artillery (155mm), even a B-52 strike, don't do much.

Best results (err...only!) obtained by moving a M1A1 and my own infantry to point blank range and blasting them out.

I don't like to get so close if I can avoid it.

Am I missing a good stand-off weapon in the USMC inventory that will deal with entrenched enemies?

155mm artillery will kill off entrenched infantry. But you need to use time to do it, one slap won't do. Repeat the dose 4-5 moves in succession, and also have your troops nearby (under 200m I think) - otherwise the defenders in retreat or worse will not abandon the dug in positions much. If enemy is known to be close by, morale suffers more.

You did of course, buy some artillery observer #231 or FO vehicles like #234, with TI sights or GSR to see through the ary smoke and dust for accurate placement of the rounds?.

Also - remember that the light helo class 204 is an arty observer class and e.g. unit #172 has thermal sights.

Level bombers are basically useless - the class was only introduced for 1944 scenario design, to use for the kick-off to cobra etc. Only buy if you are making a scenario - e.g an arclight in Vietnam say. You are within tube arty range in SP games, so there really is no great need for fixed wing air.

Once located, then use M1 Abrams or Bradleys/LAVs from just outside RPG range. Once you have removed any long range AT weaponry of course! (or made them useless with smoke - as you have TI). Be prepared to hose down the target for a couple of moves. Don't move your units.

You did of course buy the close support M1s with the XM1028 gun and the load of 30 HE and 10 HEAT (useful on soft stuff)?. See unit #639 on.

Unit #470 looks rather nice too. It clears the nasty mines you might have to deal with, and with anti-HEAT armour of 158/150 frontally then any RPG should bounce.

Smaller nasty stuff? - well after ensuring that the enemy is all pinned down and hunkered in their bunkers, then engineer unit #279 could be fun. It has the SMAW-NE which delivers a napalm round out to 500 yards, 10 times further than any WW2 flame-thrower. Units which are in a flame hex may not be destroyed, but are baking at gas mark 5, which causes distress, casualties, and possible abandonment of the position after a while...

Naturally, you attacked at night so your advantage in vision can be utilised?. (Set visibility to say 2 in battle set-up). Your rifle squads have access to vision 10 or 20, and some may have thermals (es scouts). Iranians don't in general, especially their grunts.

Andy

[Joe1960]

"...also have your troops nearby (under 200m I think) - otherwise the defenders in retreat or worse will not abandon the dug in positions much. If enemy is known to be close by, morale suffers more."

Nice to know!

"You did of course, buy some artillery observer #231 or FO vehicles like #234, with TI sights or GSR to see through the ary smoke and dust for accurate placement of the rounds?."

Yes

"Also - remember that the light helo class 204 is an arty observer class and e.g. unit #172 has thermal sights."

The Iranian AI is hot for AA assets - especially man-pack IR missiles - never bought a helo as I figure they would not last long!

"You did of course buy the close support M1s with the XM1028 gun and the load of 30 HE and 10 HEAT (useful on soft stuff)?. See unit #639 on."

Have seen this tank but at close range the MG's of the regular M1A1 handle infantry fine - besides I sometimes face 80-90 AFV 's and APC's at a pop and need all the tank killing I can get - on that note cluster munitions from a 155 are awesome!!

"Smaller nasty stuff? - well after ensuring that the enemy is all pinned down and hunkered in their bunkers, then engineer unit #279 could be fun. It has the SMAW-NE which delivers a napalm round out to 500 yards, 10 times further than any WW2 flame-thrower. Units which are in a flame hex may not be destroyed, but are baking at gas mark 5, which causes distress, casualties, and possible abandonment of the position after a while..."

Cool - will give one a test run.

"Naturally, you attacked at night so your advantage in vision can be utilised?. (Set visibility to say 2 in battle set-up). Your rifle squads have access to vision 10 or 20, and some may have thermals (es scouts). Iranians don't in general, especially their grunts."

Clever - never gave a thought to simulating night attacks like this.

Thanks for all the information. You have given me many options and ideas to try.

[Mobhack]

The Iranian AI is hot for AA assets - especially man-pack IR missiles - never bought a helo as I figure they would not last long!

And fighting at night, with helos with thermal sights makes these somewhat moot. Ditto for any visual AAA guns, unless you trip over one flying in his territory. In daylight, then a belt of smoke will mask them.

At night (or after dropping a belt of smoke over his front), fly a drone over your own lines (at first) - or pop a helo up to high - and you should find out if any radar equipped AAA assets are present. Use your arty to send them some presents, and if in LOS of a TI equipped ground shooter, some from those too. Then repeat the drone pass/helo pop up, over your own lines as and until you are not getting any radar guided AAA or SAM. Don't fly your drone/helo over his territory until you have scratched and sniffed out his air defence net. If you think you have zapped his radar air defence, then start edging your drone(s) and scout helos(s) in closer into his airspace.

Remember - Western armies rule the night (and smoke covered battlefields) after the 80s, when TI arrives.

Iran has access to only a few TI units - #31, Zulfiqar 2 is an entirely killable prospect. Terminate any such you find, instantly.

As to tanks - well, if you have a lot of targets then the CS mixed tank platoon may be what you need. There are enough stored kills there (10 sabot in the CS tanks x3, 20 sabot + 10 HEAT in the gun tank = 60 A/T rounds) to deal with 30 odds armoured targets. + 100 HE for grunt bashing +/- any of the 10 HEAT unused on the gun tank. (In a L/C, I might rebuild one of the CS ones as a gun tank for a few more stored AT rounds). Drop smoke in front of the Iranians (if fighting in daylight) so they have no reply. Or simply pop your smoke dischargers and sit behind the screen. Invest in a few armoured resupply vehicles, and you probably only need 2 such platoons, some arty and some infantry in tin cans to sweep up the debris.

The CS version is cheaper than the AT mix Abrams by about 60 points due to less stored expensive AP rounds. It can always pop behind cover and park up beside an ammo carrier as needed. Ammo carrier M548 - 39 points at 70 experience.

Actually - on reflection I would buy a platoon of the MCBS mine clearers, unit #469 or esp the #470. 20 HE/ 10 sabot / 10 HEAT. A pretty balanced load, and the HEAT ammo is dual-purpose. Keep a section of M548 nearby each platoon. 150-ish anti-HEAT frontal armour!. The mine clearing equipment adds anti-HEAT front hull armour, so the things really only fear top attack ATGM, so long as they keep the front towards the enemy... Oh, and they clear mines too!

And I likely would not bother with any helos in the core - not with such behemoths. That would render his AAA buy wasted points.

I think I would build up a core based on the following building block modules for the USMC in 2010 V Iran:

1 leg marine rifle coy (buy the ACOG rifles if you can - much better!)
+1 platoon of "engineer" M1s
+1 section of ammo vehicles
+1 or 2 LVT-only transport platoons from misc as grunt taxis/light AGL fire support (buy the cheap ones without TI, and maybe upgrade 1 in a subsequent repair phase with the TI version per platoon)
+1 SP mortar section
+1 off-map howitzer battery (take the VT section, no craters for the enemy to find cover in, cluster apers ammo)
+1 FO or FO vehicle (with TI)

- 2 such company groups should do.

coy Group 3 (battalion reserve):
1 leg marine coy
+ 81 mm mortar section
+ snipers (this coy is your defence element)
+ a light AT element (HMMV + TOW?)
+ some engineers with that SMAW flame thrower thermobaric warhead
- Transports would be borrowed from the other 2 coys as needed, or bought from support points (helos say in the attack)

Bn HQ:
the bossman
+maybe a scout helo + TI (if he shoots radar AAA or SAM and you survive, "hide with pride" till neutralised. Once he does not, you have the high ground)
+maybe a LAV platoon for scout/flank security/ bashing up tin can APCs or as a quick reaction force against any embarrassing flankers.
+ maybe some HMMV (40mm GL, it has area blast effect) as scouts/el-cheapo light fire support
+ maybe a section of towed howitzers (like the 155mm with VT) + 2 ammo carriers + prime movers. Though some armoured 120mm SP mortars are maybe a better idea...
+ maybe a section of 2 regular-load M1 as the anti-tank reserve (initially held back in overwatch, helps company #3 once tank threat is terminated with extreme prejudice)
AA? - OK, the Iranians might get a flight. Buy 2 stingers as a fig-leaf just in case.

The M1 engineer tanks lead, and kill everything they or others see, the FO delivers gifts. The LVT move grunts up while taking nil risks (never ever go inside RPG range). Grunts sweep up broken crockery while securing objectives. Ammo carriers top up tanks and SP mortars. Scouts and recce? - who needs them, the M1s are a pack of rhinos which you would only lose if you did something really silly. Advance slowly, don't charge into situations where you may get an RPG in your side. Keep 1-2 stationary while the others move, and alternate.

If you are attacking/assaulting the time is set by you (its your attack after all, not his!), so you can justify screwing the visibility down to 2 or 3 to represent night.

Andy

[Suhiir]

The "secret" to dealing with entrenched infantry is - support weapons.
Machineguns, SMAW's, AGL's, LVT/EFV's, tanks, helos, whatever you have.
Supression, supression, and more suppression...then assault their arses!

Pure infantry assaults vs a dug in enemy = death and distruction - for YOU!

[Joe1960]

Thanks for all the tips and info Andy - your force make-up is quite similar to mine except I like a lot of artillery.

And I stand somewhat corrected reference B-52 strikes on entrenched infantry. I posted my original message in the middle of a battle after three futile B-52 strikes.

#4 strike did a man's job on a dug-in platoon causing quite a few casualties.

Of course my final strike (#5) was way off target just missing one of my tanks and a MG/sniper position leaving them with the highest suppression rating I have ever seen! Think I have had enough of the USAF...

Reference the "light AT" element I may trade my standard 25mm LAV's for the TOW version as you suggest. Originally my idea with 2 of them, which unfortunately works only about half the time, was to get them into the enemies rear areas and raise havoc on soft targets and on-board artillery and mortars. They often don't last long as the Trophan (sp) ATGM's often pop up (or infantry with RPG's) and make short work of them. The M1A1 is too valuable, effective, and expensive(!), to be running around the rear area blasting soft targets. At least at first.

I make all my games 50 turns long so I do make use of ammo reload vehicles. I like the longer games vs the standard (default) 18-22 turn games as I have time to develop and manage the battle instead of having to "rush" forward and suffering stupid casualties because of it.

And for anyone who has not played it before, which is hard to imagine, the M1A1 is a serious weapon system and killer of all things on the battlefield. Between it, the UAV, and 155mm cluster munitions, I really feel sorry for OPFOR AFV's!
And after the enemy is stripped of his serious AT weaponry the remaining infantry, even while entrenched, really don't stand a chance with the combo of close range firepower of the USMC infantry and M1A1 tank.

Funny you mention the Stingers. I am now about game 30 of my long campaign with 3 Stinger units. On game 5 (not having having AA assets at the time) the AI had some serious fixed wing AC (and helos) that caused me disagreeable losses. I promptly added the Stingers to my core and the AI has not purchased air assets since! I'll be curious to see how effective they are.

Again, thanks to you, and the others, for the tips and advice.

[Suhiir]

Don't expect Stingers to have much effect on enemy aircraft.
Due to the way the game works unless you actually shoot them down before they make their attack run just damageing them has basically no effect. And it's rare that a stinger actually shoots down an aircraft.

Against helos they're somewhat more effective, in that if a helo is damaged it will usually exit the map the following turn.

In short, unless you're playing a game with unlimited ammo MANPADS are effectively useless for air defense. If you're playing unlimited ammo then yes, damaged aircraft won't return for a second (or more) bombing run later in the game.

Now if you have 10, 15, 20 MANPADS as some of the computer generated Soviet forces do this of course changes the whole equation - with enough missiles they work just fine !

[Joe1960]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Now if you have 10, 15, 20 MANPADS as some of the computer generated Soviet forces do this of course changes the whole equation - with enough missiles they work just fine !

Indeed. I usually lose at least one UAV a game., oft-times more, to the AI combo of man portable IR's and AA guns.

Course now that Andy has fed me the tip we will see.

The only problem with drawing out the AA defenders is the time factor. I find the first turn or three is the best time to hit the enemy with cluster munitions before they get all spread out - hence forcing my UAV's over the line on turn one!

[runequester]

I find a liberal application of mortars tend to work well, with some heavier guns to cause kills.

Its hard to find a good balance between converging the barrage (higher suppression and more chance of kills), and dispersing it over their front line (less effect individually but you can suppress a larger number of formations)

Against low quality troops, once you have multiple platoons panicking, the leaders are hard pressed to keep them in the line, and once that starts happening, you can "hit the beach" as it were