Exploit question

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Graeme Dice

Except that you can build more mages when you aren't fighting. Every 1500 gold that goes into an army is essentially another castle+lab that you could have built.

And still, its better to balance conquest with research. All-out turtling doesnt win, even now with clams.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that out of 44 games, one would expect at least a few nations to have no wins.

Actually, this is just what I mean. Out of 44 games (more now, actually), weakest nations have no wins.

They are part of your military. They are not part of your national troops.

Сasuistry?

Really? Then how do you plan to win if your opponent has 100+ clams while you have 50? He can dispel any globals you put up, and will always outproduce you. Never mind that there is absolutely no reason why a player that controls more than half the map shouldn't win in the first place.

If you turtled all the way as you suggested early (because every turn you spend fighting is a wasted turn, right?) while another player expanded, he will have much more gems from his lands, and probably a discount site which is often a game-winner.

How? Seeing as how Bandar Log's troops (Especially white ones) are nearly as good as Marignon's

Kek. A good one.

and seeing as how Marignon won't have sufficient astral power in a rush situation to deal with the MR 8 on the other monkeys, I don't see how their troops are going to make a rush that easy.

Fire magic maybe. Or massed x-bows against these bucklers. In my experience, Bandar Log are not much of a treat early.

Plus, summoning Naiads to forge clams means that you won't have as many as the person who doesn't have to spend water gems on mages.

True, you wont have as many. Still, quantity isnt always the main factor.
By the way... In order to clam, Bandar Log either need to summon a Yakshiny or Naga, or construction 6 and two boosters. (One of which requires water 3 to make, but thats a minor detail indeed).

No such game currently exists. And I'm also not foolish enough to think that a single duel game would make any difference to your opinion at all.

Yes, because duels and full games are quite different.

[vfb]

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Monkey PD Boulevard soon.

[Kuritza]

)))))))))))))

[alansmithee]

Originally Posted by Sombre

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

Well, I can see how CBM being in 95% of the games would make it seem that way. Like was said, if a new person comes to the forums and sees it being used so much, is told constantly that it's the standard, etc they might not have the opportunity to make any other choice. I don't know about it being just one person, but if a small but prominent group trumpets it, many of the bystanders will just go along. Many people are probably largely indifferent, but would set up games just because the pro-CBM contingent is more vocal/active/whatever than the anti-CBM group.

[Quitti]

This whole "Everyone wants everyone to play CBM so it means newbies use CBM" is not true. Take this game for example - It is a game set by newbies for mostly newbies, in which I suggested using CBM, but they preferred the vanilla game to that to actually learn the game as it was made, not how the community wants it to look. I'd still suggest starting playing with CBM if a new such game was hosted, but it's purely up to the host/players to decide the game settings, not the community. Of course, if community doesn't want to play a horribly unbalanced vanilla game (and admit it, some nations are simply very very much stronger than others still even in CBM), they won't. Simple as that. But I've yet to see anyone prove this point despite throwing such accusations around. I was in ComfortZone myself, but I was eliminated by three or four player alliance in the midgame, and it was definitely fun.

Kuritza, I know you've sworn quitting the game, but I'd really suggest you to start a non-CBM game if you want to play in one, or play with CBM 1.5 (with gemgens) or modify CBM 1.6 to enable gem gens again if you think that is the only point. You keep talking about how this change if wrong, when judged by most experienced players it is not. And like I've stated before, I don't agree with all the changes in the CBM, but it definitely makes the game much more fun to play with much more options and better overall balance.

[Mardagg]

I agree with Quitti.
I was a newb regarding DOM 3 MP games and joined 2 games about 2 months ago: One is vanilla,the other CBM 1.6.
The vanilla game filled very fast and consists of some newbies and some more experienced players also.
The consensus in the vanilla game(Casual EA) was not using CBM to get the original feeling of the game,the developers wanted it to be.
I must say,now that both games are around Turn 40,that personally,i find CBM much superior to vanilla.
I dont agree on all changes it makes,but on most.
I especially like how it increases the options on pretender design,which clearly is a big downside in vanilla,since most Pretender chassis are simply too weak and/or expensive to take.
And you have to consider,while CBM now removes Clams,most of the so called "clam nations" have been slightly improved in other areas or simply benefit more than others from the overall balance changes e.g. better early summoning spells via cheap dragon master.

Ive played a lot of DOm2 MP End games and i know what it means to battle it out with hundreds of clam holders.
Turns taking 12 hours+ mainly because its so tough to micro all the artifacts/gem gens and deciding how to spend those 300+ gems the most effective way.Thats not fun,thats a pain.

[Psycho]

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.

Oh, and BTW I think Bogus and co. can be used with their orders, but orders shouldn't be copied to other units.

[Kuritza]

Could you explain, by the way, which nations are so unbalanced in Vanilla compared to CBM? Mictlan? Now that it retains blood magic while gemgens are void its possibly stronger than ever.
Buffs to 'clam nations'... you mean the naiad warriors? ))))))))))))))))) Its the best joke ever, really.
Oh, and the hero blades. Because national troops should remain important, and woe to thee if yours suck.

I wholeheartedly agree that pretender options are better in CBM, and thats why I preferred CBM to Vanilla myself until now.

[Torin]

I am under the impression that CBM favors early SC pretenders wich is defenitely the least fun idea of a game.

*Titan like pretenders have reduced new path costs and sometimes reduced cost overall
*const 0 under CBM has most equipement (swords, shields, etc) to free early research towards Alt

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

[llamabeast]

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

Er, I think that's just entirely untrue.