Exploit question

[Squirrelloid]

Someone really needs to conduct some statistics on the HoF.

In particular, I would imagine BL has not won a game almost entirely due to the impression that they are weak, and thus occur in significantly less games than nations which are perceived as strong. If we looked at how many games BL failed to win that it actually could win, I'd be willing to bet you could reject the claim that they have done significantly worse than expectation. Heck, even assuming they've been in *every MA game ever recorded* you probably still couldn't demonstrate they've done worse than expectation given the sample size.

I would take BL over Eriu any day, clams or no clams. Heck, I'd take BL over a number of nations in MA.

[Sombre]

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to a claim based on the HoF record of wins. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

[vfb]

Some people end games in a draw rather than slog through the extreme suck at the end, just to get their names on some list. The dom3 gui does not provide for effective management of large amounts of stuff, and it seems more like work than play once you get to a point where: you have to watch how much you are forging, in order not to fill up your lab; you have to track future gear for 3 or 4 thugs; you have to refill used gems on BF/BE-casting mages; you have to hire a Elludian Moon Mage in province #333, a Circle Master in province #421, and a Adept in #127 -- none of which provinces you've got a fort in anyway.

Back to the point: there was an MP game, "Blessing", that ended this way, and Kailasa was pretty much rocking the world with a large number of astral summons. Even though they had the Monkey PD.

[Quitti]

Kailasa is a very strong nation with clams included. Either way, 43 recorded games, assuming that 40% (optimistic) is MA is 17 games, MA has 23 nations, BL is one of them (4.3% of the nations are BL), they are percieved to be a weak nation by many (and they do require skill to play correctly) so let's say if one game averages bit more than half the nations of MA, and bit less than half of those include BL, that'd mean they are in about 6-7 of the games even listed in HoF.

23 nations. 43 games in which 7 BL has taken part of. They haven't won, when there are:
a) Ashdod
b) Pythium
c) Shinuyama
d) other strong nations, include your preference
in the game.

Now if I've learned anything about statistics, a sample size of that amount (7 games out of 20 viable to even consideration out of which 4.3% of the nations has never won) doesn't quarantee a good place to do assumptions upon. Especially in a game like dom3 where luck plays a part of the game.

The point with the 'BL not in HoF = it's bad nation' is moot. Thank you.

[Sombre]

Since quitti likes being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of Bandar Log nations is why it has never registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but it has never registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any Bandar Log PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent Bandar Log, in any game, with any settings, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala (a very similar nation to Bandar Log) Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

[Baalz]

I thought you were being sarcastic Sombre, but it seems you really believe that? By that logic Eriu should win almost every game they're in because they can smear almost everybody's PD left and right with cheap recruit anywhere thugs. Bandar Log is a challenging nation, no argument, but its disadvantages are far from being unable to be overcome. I must say I'm getting a bit frustrated by the cursory dismissal of suggested strategies I have *ACTUALLY USED* to defeat people as being unrealistic. I'd be happy to duel somebody who thinks Bandar is unwinnable so it can be demonstrated to me what it is that I'm missing. Should be easy enough since they can't ever win, right? I shouldn't even be able to put up a real fight I'd assume.

My challenge:
2 players
Me: Bandar Log
You: your choice of C'tis, Agartha, Machaka, Abysia, Jotunheim, Arco, Ermor, Vanheim, Pangea, Ulm, Shinuyama, Marignon, Mictlan
Research: easy
# of provinces: 50, randomly generated
CBM 1.6
All other settings default

[Maerlande]

Monkey PD is fine. You just need to station 2 or 3 D9 blessed Apsaras in every province with an indy priest. Morale problems solved and you get that wonderful D9 banish spam.

[Foodstamp]

Some of you dewds should go back to IRC and just talk about people in private rather than bully them in public.

[Quitti]

Back to IRC? Madness! That's where we devise our most prized stratagems! It's only here you'll see them put into action!

[namad]

gem-gens were broken. gem-gens were solely responsible for many players quitting games and many games ending in draws. gem-gens will only work on small enough maps with small enough numbers of players (so form a small game and use 1.6cbm with gemgens reinstated)...


as far as unintentionally nerfing or buffing nations well... most of the nations which are bad and got nerfed too much "unintentionally" also have had many many many many balance patches coming from cbm too!

bad nations that rely on clams are WORSE in vanilla than in cbm1.6 ... oceania commanders costs reduced and hinnom commanders costs increase etc etc etc... and i'm sure cbm 1.8 will have even better balance



gem-gens are a dominating strategy of unimaginable power... when you play on a large map and 5different players are casting wish for gems everyturn and then some wars break out and 10armageddons get cast and then theres no more income left anywhere in the world and no more troops because of upkeep ... yeah... that'll be fun why don't we just all play games where there is 0income 0resources0supply and 100magical site settings

oh and then theres the player without gemgens who is winning in every category and starts attacking players with gem gens.... he takes half their provinces and then he realizes that they have 10times his gem income despite having half his gem income on the graphs and then he gets attacked by 100tarts being lead by 10fully geared tarts



also it's very common for games to be more popular with mods than without... things like x3, sev, moo3, ja2, beta-mount-blade ...etc...

years of testing and hundreds of hours of work into fanmade patches almost always improve games!