Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Tollund]

Given that Jomon's troops are resource constrained, the problem is always going to end up being that you can build X samurai archers or 1.3*X Aka-oni. It would certainly be possible to change Samurai archers so that they would be a better or equal buy to Aka-oni, but that would make them virtually indistinguishable.

[kianduatha]

Well, the 'thematic' option is to keep Ashigaru the same price and give them shortbows. I suspect that won't fly, though.

Is there any reason Samurai Archers don't have the same stats as the 'other' 12 gold samurai, the O-Ban? That would improve them plenty, it seems.

Also, does it bug anyone else that Shrimp Soldiers use Glaives when they probably should be using Naginatas?

[Sombre]

Longbow samurai cost more gold because longbows are awesome and if they cost the same as the other samurai they're basically all anyone would build.

So there's no chance they are going to get a stat boost to be semi elite in melee as well.

[Festin]

Also, does it bug anyone else that Shrimp Soldiers use Glaives when they probably should be using Naginatas?

Probably nobody ever uses them, because Jomon fails to get underwater. So, nobody noticed this.

[Tollund]

The disconnect between troop performance, resource cost, and gold cost is one of the things that still needs to be looked at more carefully I think.

[rdonj]

The main thing samurai archers need to be more viable is a lower resource cost so that they're actually massable, rather than costing more resources than every single other unit you can recruit. So if you're going to change them, I would suggest finding ways to lower their resource costs.

Samurai armor takes 8 resources. The kabuto takes 2 resources (and is the helmet with the worst resource to protection ratio in the game under vanilla, at 6 resources). The longbow takes 5. And the katana takes 7.

This is all a lot of resources for things that an archer doesn't really need. That said, you would basically either need to create entirely new equipment for them (ashigaru armor isn't really very thematic, you could maybe replace the katana with a wakizashi for 3 less resources), or just make them completely unarmored, possibly with a precision bonus. They would still cost 13 resources (10 with wakizashi), but I can see no realistic way to lower their resource cost sufficiently other than the complete removal of any armor given the insane resource costs of all samurai weaponry.

Although come to think of it if you wanted to make an archer with no armor it might be better to make an entirely new unit.

[Trumanator]

While their high resource cost is an issue, I'm afraid that if you make them massable they'd be the only thing people would recruit. Longbows are just so incredibly awesome. Personally I'd be okay with reducing the res cost a little, but only enough that its possible to recruit some of them, not to make them the default unit.

[Squirrelloid]

Sombre: Gold cost is not supposed to reflect equipment but the person's stats. As such, i strongly advocate reducing the archers to 10 gold to match the other samurai (and giving them the same 11 precision of their non-archer brethren). Since resources are the limiting cost, and they will always cost more than resources than a samurai without a longbow, the difference in gold cost is negligible and silly.

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That said, I don't see any real way to make samurai archers at all playable given reasonable gear, and thus reasonable resource costs. I would, however, reduce the resource costs because they are ridiculous.

Katana should cost no more than 5 resources. That it takes almost as much as the armor is ridiculous. (this also puts it below the no-dashi). I would probably place it at 4r.

The longbow should cost like 2 resources. Seriously.

[rdonj]

1) MA man recruits them for 9 resources, so while they'd be more massable, even a completely unarmored guy with a wakizashi and longbow would be less massable than man's longbowmen.
2) Longbows are a lot more awesome when everyone isn't wearing plate and carrying tower shields. Even indies in la are hard to kill with longbows.

I can't see them working as your sole recruit without fire arrows. Until then, they just do not have enough damage output in the armor-heavy late period. Unless you're fighting manikin hordes or something else that doesn't have a shield. Plus you would still be owned by indy shortbows, who are more easily massed, cost less and actually have armor. There are maybe 8 LA nations whose expansion units are not nigh-invulnerable to longbows, and even fewer who could not adapt to deal with them just by changing what they recruit. I cannot see 12-15 resource longbows approaching overpoweredness in LA.

Squirrel - I think I agree with you on resource costs. Longbows are actually 3 resources in vanilla. Katana are still 7 though. And basic samurai armor 10

[kianduatha]

Remember that if you make katanas or Samurai armor better/cheaper for Jomon, it'll also buff Shinuyama.

If you want to lower Samurai Archer resource cost, just give them a Yari instead of a Katana. Bam, down to 17 resources.

Also here's the thing about Samurai Archer stats--they're lower even than those of indie Longbowmen, who at least get 11 Str and 10 HP. Incidentally, giving Samurai Archers Yari solves the problem of 'why would anyone buy anything else'--their weapons would be different.