Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Squirrelloid]

While I'm not sure easier access is the way to go with Flaming Arrows, CBM may want to think about focusing on nation balance more than it has been. Some of the generally considered weak nations probably aren't, but some of them almost certainly are, and it would be nice if those nations received some boosting _as a nation_ to make them more competitive. Especially since better balance won't hurt standard ways of playing the game but would substantially improve the play experience for a number of game varieties, such as RAND style games.

(MA Agartha being the first nation eliminated by somewhere in the ballpark of 10 turns before the next elimination was probably not a surprise to most people, for example, and it would be nice if random nation selection didn't result in some players getting shafted).

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Flaming arrows was simply too dominant a spell early on.

I was playing mostly vanilla games earlier, and I don't remember Flaming Arrows cast by much anybody else but Marignon, Machaka and Tien Chi, and Ulm and Man if they happened to have a pretender casting that.

My memory can be quite selective, but I think I've never seen Flaming Arrows cast ever against me in a CBM game. And I usually play Pangaea and I love Mass Protection, so Flaming Arrows would make lots of sense.

How commonly is Flaming Arrows cast in CBM games? Is it just a flue I never see it cast against me (or that I never seem to have any need to cast it when it finally eventually becomes available)?

[Sombre]

I don't have the mp experience to tell you how often it was cast or by which nations, but even if it was cast by very few nations under vanilla values it's such a strong spell and available so early that anyone who could cast it would want to beeline it immediately. It absolutely ruins just about any mundane army EA or MA and tips the whole fight as quickly as a high level spell like darkness, imo. Of course it was counterable etc, but it was really, really good for how early you could get it.

I don't have a strong opinion on the research level it's at, but I get why it was moved. Nothing to do with nation balance.

It's still a great spell. If you don't need it you're winning anyway I guess?

[vfb]

Yomi & Shin cast it easily too. And Aby, with any tribal archers.

[Jarkko]

Ok, but have you ever seen it cast under CBM? If it is not cast ever, then I suppose it is not very balanced as a *spell* (wether it would boost or not certain nations), or is it?


Any nation having good enough fire-mages to cast Fire Arrows in CBM will be deeply screwed. There is absolutely zero incentive to ignore Evocations for that long, you'd have all the amazing fire-evocations way before, so it is retarded to not go that way. When you then eventually end up with Fire Arrows (prolly after you've already have at least Evocation 5, Conjuration 5+ and Construction 6), Flaming Arrows is already a joke (flaming things are of very little use after early midgame).

[Sombre]

Well yeah, since I've cast it under CBM, I've seen it cast under CBM. I don't see what that has to do with anything anyway, since like I said I don't have the MP experience to comment on how widely used it is. I have used the spell and know how powerful it is. I'd say massing archers with fire arrows is a much better idea than forming up evocation barrage squads, under the vanilla fire arrows values. It takes only a few mages to provide a lot of extra firepower and they can continue to cast spells after the flaming arrows. To match that kind of firepower you'd be talking a lot more mages casting evocations.

I think you overestimate the amount of fire protection your enemy is going to field. Regular armies are still around and without total fire immunity until the lategame sees them entirely replaced with items and summons.

[vfb]

Fire arrows also turns your missiles into magic ones, giving them +2 to hit versus shields, according to the manual. It may be more. I've cast Fire Arrows versus FR Aby troops, to help me punch through the shields (or zip around -- whatever it is magic arrows do). In CBM.

[Sombre]

The secondary effect from fire arrows may ignore shields entirely if poison missile weapons are any indication.

Actually I think someone tested this, but I don't remember what the result was.

edit: vfb's post was about the regular arrow damage though.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Sombre

I think you overestimate the amount of fire protection your enemy is going to field. Regular armies are still around and without total fire immunity until the lategame sees them entirely replaced with items and summons.

If what you say was true, then I should see Fire Arrows cast all the time in CBM MP games.

For some odd reason I've never seen it used against me. Not even when I play Pangaea and use Mass Protection (which would make Fire Arrows even more effective).

It's cool to talk about the theoretical possibilities of a given spell, but my impression is that Fire Arrows is *not used*. If somebody steps up and say they use Fire Arrows and ignore fire evocations, then I shut up.

I would prefer to not read about theoretical number juggling. I spesifically have asked now three times if they've seen Fire Arrows used in CBM MP games, and so far none has told they have (unless I misintepret vfb's post above). I've also asked who would in CBM forego fire evocations to get Fire Arrows instead, and that doesn't even wake a discussion.




As far I've understood, Conceptual Balance Mod is about making items, units and spells more balanced. Does people feel Fire Arrows is balanced in CBM? Are the requirements (Enchantment 5 and a F4 mage) on par with what the spell does? Personally I think the requirement would be ok if it was in Evocation (where Flaming Arrow doesn't IMO fit thematically), but in a tree with zero Fire spells (oh, there is Fire Shield...) that is pretty close to ridiculous, isn't it?

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

If what you say was true, then I should see Fire Arrows cast all the time in CBM MP games.

That doesn't logically follow at all. People could be underestimating fire arrows, they could lack the path access, they could have been too busy with other research, they could have different uses for the mages capable of casting it, they could be in a continually poor position to use it etc

It's cool to talk about the theoretical possibilities of a given spell, but my impression is that Fire Arrows is *not used*. If somebody steps up and say they use Fire Arrows and ignore fire evocations, then I shut up.

I've used fire arrows. vfb has used fire arrows. The use of fire arrows doesn't necessitate ignoring evocations. You've had literally two people respond. Like I said I don't have the MP experience to comment on its CBM usage.

I would prefer to not read about theoretical number juggling. I spesifically have asked now three times if they've seen Fire Arrows used in CBM MP games, and so far none has told they have (unless I misintepret vfb's post above). I've also asked who would in CBM forego fire evocations to get Fire Arrows instead, and that doesn't even wake a discussion.

See above. If you're patient you'll probably get more responses. You can also try in the IRC channel. I don't see the theoretical number juggling you refer to. I'm also unclear on who 'they' are. Me and vfb? We've both said we used fire arrows in cbm.

I don't have the experience with heavy fire nations (in cbm) to weigh up the early game applictations of fire arrows vs rushing up evocation. I did respond regarding vanilla, at the value you questioned the change from, where fire arrows are definitely legit to go for ahead of fire evocations in a lot of situations.

Personally I think the requirement would be ok if it was in Evocation (where Flaming Arrow doesn't IMO fit thematically), but in a tree with zero Fire spells (oh, there is Fire Shield...) that is pretty close to ridiculous, isn't it?

Not really. There are plenty of reasons beyond fire to be rushing down enchantment in the early/midgame. Fire arrows, being a single use per battle spell, doesn't require lots of fire mages. Just one or two of them. It can be cast by an F2 caster easily enough as well.