Legendary Ordeals - Isokron Wins!

[Baalz]

I'm wondering if it might be good to have a limited set of rituals that can be requested as there are some really, really game changing stuff that otherwise opens up - like calling for an earth attack as you see somebody's pretender out site searching turn 5, or volcano eruptions on peoples cap or undoubtedly dozens of other nasty stuff that people will think of which are really not balanced to be dropped early.

Also, as you've implied that its possible to request specific items it might be a good idea to restrict a few of them like rings of wizardry, robe of the magi, elemental staffs, um maybe staff of storms. Even some lower research items might be a problem like soul contracts. Basically seems like boons should add some flavor but not really be game changers. Might be easy enough just to play it by ear and have the big guy fairly arbitrarily deny any request that seems likely to foul the whole contest he's running. Foolish peon! You must win this contest on your own strengths!

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Baalz

I'm wondering if it might be good to have a limited set of rituals that can be requested as there are some really, really game changing stuff that otherwise opens up - like calling for an earth attack as you see somebody's pretender out site searching turn 5, or volcano eruptions on peoples cap or undoubtedly dozens of other nasty stuff that people will think of which are really not balanced to be dropped early.

Also, as you've implied that its possible to request specific items it might be a good idea to restrict a few of them like rings of wizardry, robe of the magi, elemental staffs, um maybe staff of storms. Even some lower research items might be a problem like soul contracts. Basically seems like boons should add some flavor but not really be game changers. Might be easy enough just to play it by ear and have the big guy fairly arbitrarily deny any request that seems likely to foul the whole contest he's running. Foolish peon! You must win this contest on your own strengths!

Right. I had notes of that sort, but forgot to write them. Added following to first post:

-> If the request for a boon is too outrageous (like requesting for a RoW's and other high end items or high end remote rituals), I will grant a random boon instead (with the penalty boon normally associated with "specific requests"). (Insolent Fool, you know nothing! Here is what you shall receive!)

Note though that I will upgrade the boon tables every 20 turns. A reguest that would be "outrageous" on turn 16 might be reasonable on turn 66.

Maerlande has looked over the Ordeals and agreed with them once I did some small changes.

It is my sole intention that the boons and ordeals will be a "spice" in this game, not the main course. They alone will in no case determine the winner.

[Isokron]

Wouldn't it be better for a arena victory to grant an extra boon instead of a conquest points? Otherwise the first tournaments wouldn't be worth very much but the later might decide the game.

[Gregstrom]

How about both, then? It'd be quite fun to see the arena properly contested.

[Baalz]

Hmm, also seems like winning via holding the arena champ would necessitate winning with him, then winning again as someone almost certainly would use boon to call for another arena fight in the 3 turns you've got to hold him. Still, winning while holding just 3 extra caps is a fairly low bar that might end the game just when things are getting interesting, maybe one more VP required for the win since it seems likely the winner will have the arena champ.

[militarist]

Some ideas....

ORDEALS can be like quest, and as reword for it's completion, you can get direct - item, etc or indirect (boon points, which reflect how Pantokrator treats specific nation and then how it affects all future boons to this player) benefit. And they could be of different level of complexity ,and reward will be different.

In this case, Pantokrator would be able to give larger range of boons , for example HINNOM asks for HARD ORDEAL, saying I need something to swim for my army. That can be pretty good for Hinnom, if his capital has 2-3 water provinces around, and some dimoplacy...Anyway it can be gamechanging to give him that. So, understanding it (or just to improve quality of items, for example completed Easy ordeal gives lvl 0 item, normal lvl 2, hard level 4, impossible level 6 an it should depand on how easy or hard this ordeal for THIS SPEcific player, and how useful could be such iem for him). Rejection ot inability to complete it (for example - impossible ordeal can be - to get by war some provinces which are belong to stronger neighbor) can have or not have consiquences, regarding of Pantokrator decision.
Anyway, having a connection between ordeals and boons and ability to choose between levels of complexity would be good. It shouldn't be like negotiations, though.
Just player prays for what he wants - gift? Gift with easy ordeal(hoping to get better gift)? just ordeal to improve relations with god? For example, I finished a war and would like to devote the next war to my god, what should I do?

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Isokron

Wouldn't it be better for a arena victory to grant an extra boon instead of a conquest points? Otherwise the first tournaments wouldn't be worth very much but the later might decide the game.

Good observation about the early game reward, getting a boon from winning from the Arena makes sense.

I'm not even sure if anyone will ever recieve the conquest point from the having the champion, because of the no-magic restriction. You only need one guy to bring along something like a Tart, Rudra or national high end mage to make all Bane Lords and the like simply evaraporate.

Also, after a certain point, players will be able to use boon to start the arena deathmatch (sorry about the spoiler, but it is necessary for this discussion). So basically, it will be very easy to take someone's Arena VP away. (reguest for the Arena and decimate the winner with a mage)

Although, I must say that I'm not the most experienced player in this game, so I might be missing something here in my logic. The conquest point from Arena can be replaced if players feel that it should go.

Originally Posted by Baalz

Hmm, also seems like winning via holding the arena champ would necessitate winning with him, then winning again as someone almost certainly would use boon to call for another arena fight in the 3 turns you've got to hold him. Still, winning while holding just 3 extra caps is a fairly low bar that might end the game just when things are getting interesting, maybe one more VP required for the win since it seems likely the winner will have the arena champ.

I'm not really worried about the game ending suddenly. There are very very few conquest point ordeals and they are really really hard. This game won't end like Dramatica, mostly because of the map. The ports make it relatively simple to reach all points of the map and ganging up on someone is really easy. Although, once again, I might be missing something.

[Burnsaber]

Sorry for not responding sooner, but I wanted to read your post with tought, been busy lately.

Originally Posted by militarist

Some ideas....

ORDEALS can be like quest, and as reword for it's completion, you can get direct - item, etc or indirect (boon points, which reflect how Pantokrator treats specific nation and then how it affects all future boons to this player) benefit. And they could be of different level of complexity ,and reward will be different. In this case, Pantokrator would be able to give larger range of boons , for example HINNOM asks for HARD ORDEAL, saying I need something to swim for my army.

Intresting idea, but IMHO you should always strive to keep the rules as simple as possible, especially for a format already cluttered with rules such as this. Also, each ordeal that I have to design is more work for me and a potential balance problem (because each easy/hard/ etc.. ordeal would have to balanced against each other ordeal of the same type of the each nation).

Originally Posted by militarist

That can be pretty good for Hinnom, if his capital has 2-3 water provinces around, and some dimoplacy...Anyway it can be gamechanging to give him that. So, understanding it (or just to improve quality of items, for example completed Easy ordeal gives lvl 0 item, normal lvl 2, hard level 4, impossible level 6 an it should depand on how easy or hard this ordeal for THIS SPEcific player, and how useful could be such iem for him). Rejection ot inability to complete it (for example - impossible ordeal can be - to get by war some provinces which are belong to stronger neighbor) can have or not have consiquences, regarding of Pantokrator decision.

Well, there is a reason why I designed the Ordeals before the game even started. There is a variable that I want to eliminate and that variable is me. That's why I have made all these charts where I randomly roll for the stuff granted, that's why I will release all data I used at the end of the game. The fewer decisions I make on the spot, in the game, the less chance there is for me to favour some nation over another. It's very easy, for example, to grow symphatetic towards the underdog and favour him more. That would not be fair, it would the equivalent of that effing "hit-the-leader" shell in Mario Kart.

Hence, I rely on charts and dice instead of me. Charts and dice are fair 100%, I'm like only 90-95% fair at best. My years as a tabletop GM have taught me it's really easy to subconsiously make decisions that favour some player more than another, no matter how fair you are determined to be.

Originally Posted by militarist

For example, I finished a war and would like to devote the next war to my god, what should I do?

Your suggestion is quite thematic, but there is a problem with a player deciding what his ordeal would entail. Like in your example, what if the player is going to wage war in any case, but just wants to get some free favour while he's "at it", so to speak. Sure, the pantokrator could tailor it to be something more intresting, but see the problem of making a lot of "on spot" decision I detailed in the above paragraph.

[Burnsaber]

Game is up on llamaserver!

Mod is downloadable from first post. Only CPCS made it through the voting. If you are not familiar with it, see this thread for complete list of spells it adds.

Map is downloadable from first post. I added fixed starts that are relatively fair (or at least more fair than random ones). I also fixed one port which seemed to lack port connections.

Arena rules & the amount of CP's needed for win are still contested, but otherwise the rules for the game are quite final.

[Burnsaber]

I had to revise the mod and the map, twice, in order to work around the retarted version of single-age mod that llamaserver is using. If you downloaded any older versions, please download the new version and delete the old ones.

Basically I had to make my modded "pantokrator" nation overwrite Ma Man before llamaserver could accept it.