MP: Land Rand - Jotunheim Wins!

[Zeldor]

It looks like you need to learn a lot about MP still

You took one some Van provs when I was at war with him, including one that was in the middle of my provs then, blocking my movements etc. I just took it with small force, without putting any big armies nearby [like you did]. Your next moves made it quite obvious you lack RAND experience and larger scope.

Your assumption that you can grab VPs from me was a bit naive. Also getting one from BL would be quite hard. I attacked him only to block access for Jotun to his cap.

Sure, attacking Jotun would have been hard [and maybe fatal], but for some time it was quite obvious that without him being taken down [or weakened] no one else can win. So you just helped him

[PashaDawg]

Here is the full list of players:

Aethyr = Agartha (Dead turn 20)
Atul = Pan
Calahan = Ulm (Dead turn 30)
Jurri = Bandar Log
Lingchih = Arco (gone AI turn 60)
Lolomo = Eriu
Meglobob = C'tis
Micah = Jotunheim
MscFish; Replaced by BandC = Caelum
Namad; Replaced by Folket = Man (Dead turn 32)
Omnirizon = Pythium (Gone AI turn 39)
Quantum Mechani; Replaced by Alpine Joe Turn 41 = Tien Chi
Squirrelloid = Ermor
Trumanator = Vanheim (Gone AI turn 41)
Wokeye = Shinuyama (Gone AI turn 31)
Wraithlord = Machaka (Dead turn 63)
Ygorl = Ashdod (Dead turn 59)
Zeldor = Mictlan

Pasha

[Meglobob]

Classic RAND, once a nation gets a decent lead, they are hard to take down because there's no diplomacy, so the the normal method ganging up on them can't be used.

For the record, I was scared of the Jotuns the entire game and thus had massive forces all along the Ctis/Jotun border. I had no intention of attacking Jotun on my own as it would have been suicide. I was hoping Jotun would mess up trying to take another nation out or Mictlan would attack the Jotuns and then I would have tried to take advantage.

[WraithLord]

I assumed Ermor and Mictlan would attack Jotun b/c it should have been obvious to them that any other action would lead to them losing the game.

I think the fatal catch in RAND games is assuming you could just make another grab instead of stopping the clear winner.
Reason is simple, with no diplo on why would anyone risk a losing war instead of making easy gains instead or just turtling. This is even true when it's crystal clear that player A is going to win and all the rest are losing!
Petty wars still rage. Grudges are unforgiven. Opportunistic raids cont. etc.

RAND experience makes help better decisions but experience only goes so far to offset the RAND psychology.

[Zeldor]

There was some talk about RAND format before, it needs to be adjusted a bit And recruitable thug/SC nations seem to have an advantage.

Anyway, my comment from Mictlan perspective [and rant about Ermor's behaviour]:

It was really obvious for some time that Jotun is running away with the game - some easy victories over weak neighbours + his superior nation [at least over Mictlan].

And it was really clear who Jotun player is - even QM knew that when he was subbed out. For everyone else it should have been obvious that it's at least a vet.

Ermor got some easy victories and then was just sitting and making undead. He could have taken BL when I was acquiring MAchaka + Vanheim. Or he could have attacked me then, when I was fighting 2 enemies. But he was sitting and doing nothing.

Meanwhile Jotun was finishing AI Arco off and what Ermor did? Move armies to my border. Sure, I somehow understand his reasoning, but whole idea was wrong from the beginning.

Situation was that:
BL and Pan being 2 lesser powers, fighting each other. And Jotun with massive army, after Arco conquest, just on their border, 2 turns from BL caps... Some people noticed it. I moved armies in, to block Jotun. So did C'tis.

I can say only good things about C'tis here. He did not give up in tough war with Pyth. He won it, paying huge price. And he refused to give up, even knowing that he had no chances to win. He wanted to make sure that no one gets an easy win. HE blocked BL and Pan caps from easy grabbing. He had armies on Jotun border, ready for action.

Anyway, Squirreloid made even more abd assumptions, deciding to go to war with me. He knew I have D9 bless, so Undead Mastery guaranteed. He knew about flambeus thugs. He knew about nasty communions. He knew about Tlaloques. He knew about my indy mages. All that makes it that attack really stupid move.

There was no way that Alpine Joe can stop Jotun, or at least slow him down enough. It was obvious that me and Ermor fighting pretty much give Jotun a victory. So I never planned to attack Ermor - but I could not attack Jotun with Ermor armies constantly on my border [even though they faced only PD - can I send better sign when I have 1k undead on my border?].

So pretty much what Meglobob said. I don't know if Jotun would be stopped [BoT would hurt me a lot], but I consider just helping him this way a bit lame and unnecessery.

I was most of the time against calling the game with result other than a draw. Jotun had no way of winning in reasonable timeframe, unless someone helps him [by playing sub-par]. And Ermor did, so I changed my mind and agreed for calling the game. I am pretty sure I'd win the war, but TC would fall down faster. And Jotun would just grab 2 VPs from weakened Ermor - as they'd be the easiest VPs around [and owned by someone who proved to be making tactical mistakes]. I really hoped that it'd end in soem final battles, where someone has to prove that he deserved a victory. Now it feels like it's victory because other players got bored with the game and Micah refused to accept a draw [it's hard to blame him for that though].

[WraithLord]

Some random comments:

"
Ermor got some easy victories and then was just sitting and making undead. He could have taken BL when I was acquiring MAchaka + Vanheim. Or he could have attacked me then, when I was fighting 2 enemies. But he was sitting and doing nothing.
"
I was sure he was going to attack you. That's partly why I bunkered in my castles instead of really fighting.

"
I can say only good things about C'tis here. He did not give up in tough war with Pyth. He won it, paying huge price. And he refused to give up, even knowing that he had no chances to win. He wanted to make sure that no one gets an easy win. HE blocked BL and Pan caps from easy grabbing. He had armies on Jotun border, ready for action.
"
I played quite a few games with MB and I can definitely say he's as tough as they get. Too bad it didn't get to a real fight with Jotun

"
Anyway, Squirreloid made even more abd assumptions, deciding to go to war with me. He knew I have D9 bless, so Undead Mastery guaranteed. He knew about flambeus thugs. He knew about nasty communions. He knew about Tlaloques. He knew about my indy mages. All that makes it that attack really stupid move.
"
In retrospect all looks clear but at the time he may have had valid reasons (to his prespective). Mis-perceptions and consequent wrong strategic moves often decide games (and real wars) fates.

"Now it feels like it's victory because other players got bored with the game and Micah refused to accept a draw [it's hard to blame him for that though]. "
Want to fix RAND format?- forbid him giant nations and while at it all top 20 HoF nations
If all agreed to concede to him then victory is rightfully his.

[Micah]

Haha, I had no intention of going after Bandar...way too much astral spam to deal with for one lousy VP that was totally surrounded by the biggest powers in the game.

Zeldor - Going after squirrel for not attacking me is a bit self-serving. Him attacking you/Mictlan won me the game, but him attacking me would have lost him the game, so he pretty much ends up in the same spot. All he could have done is played kingmaker for Mictlan by throwing himself under the Jotun bus, since I certainly wasn't about to let whoever started the ganging on me win the game, and I was very much powerful enough to have easily made sure I could pick the winner between Ermor and Mictlan. Anyone who knows how I play should know how I conduct my grudges. =)

[Meglobob]

We shouldn't under estimate Micah here, he's a seriously good player, indeed if there was a vote for best Dom3 player he would probably get my vote. So Micah plus Jotun (possibly strongest nation in MA?) was always going to be fav to win this game, especially with no diplomacy. I am not so sure me/Ctis and Mictlan could have beaten Jotuns even together and even if Ermor had not made a strategic error of attacking Mictlan. So the Micah/Jotuns was a very worthy winner in my opinion and fully deserved.

Suggestions to improve RAND :-

Get rid of random nations, getting stuck with nation you did not want to play like I was, just sucks. My reason for not wanting to play Ma Ctis was simply I had just finished playing a 80+ turn game with them and the last nation I wanted to play again straight away was Ma Ctis. A good system is if each player puts upto five nations they are willing to play and then assigned randomly.

VP's are constantly being put too high, if 1 player had really wanted to be stubborn we would have had to play this game for another upteen turns until finally the Jotuns won anyway.

Perhaps consider playing RAND/no diplomacy up until a random turn between 30-50, that turn remains secret until its announced. Then all nation ownership is revealed and normal diplomacy is allowed. This will spice the game up alot and make the endgame more exciting.

Oh and a big thanks to Pasha for hosting this game!

[Zeldor]

Well, I'm not underestimating Micah at all. I don't want to be too harsh on Squirrel either, sorry if my tome sounds like that. I just want to point out that attacking me was a strategic mistake. He did not even give me chance to attack Jotun first or even do anything else.

[Micah]

Meglo: certain vets prefer rand games precisely because they cut down on the horrid ganging problems late game, so I think opening up diplo really changes the nature of the format. The whole sentiment of "x was winning, and then he won, so there should have been more ganging/someone messed up" is a bit telling of people's attitudes toward the game leader. There's something broken with the game when winning the game when you are in the top position midgame is considered a fluke or blamed on play errors. =)

I'd be all for pulling nations out of the mix for balance reasons or having a little bit of influence over who you get (though I'd prefer a small black list as opposed to getting one of your top 5, that's not random, that's just making the host's life livable in terms of nation assignment)