Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Dimaz]

I wanted them to be very flexible and mobile army support, able to take on a chunk of enemy troops (especially demons) as a valuable part of an army

So far in Lunar Sea they were successful at stopping demonic solo raiders (and lightning attack raiders) while going down quickly faced with groups of ordinary demons (I think the absense of shield plays huge part here). So it seems they can't fill your initial idea currently, as both their stats and Trapeze possibility suggests to use them as anti-raiders, while sending them on demonic armies is not very effective.
But in the new role they are amazingly effective, cutting down entire strategy for Lanka (sure, solo Raksharajas can be killed in a number of ways, but this seems to be one of the cheapest and most effective one).

[Squirrelloid]

Lanka is overpowered anyway, I'm not going to cry if their raiders have a relatively cheap counter...

[Dimaz]

I'm not going to cry either as I'm playing Lanka for the first time there, made tons of wrong decisions but still think I have pretty good position and clearly see that Lanka is one of the strongest EA nations. However, I think that in Dom every counter should have another counter, and for Shishi, trapezing LfL casters looks almost like no-brainer (as Shishi themselves against demon thugs), except that they have more HP than one LfL cast removes. Which means, with luck pendant you should cast it at least 3 times to get reliable result (better 4). That's why I suggested 40 hp instead of 50. As for the gems cost, well, I think 40 is more appropriate, but it's hard for me to find obvious reasons why 40 and not 30 and not 35. Just my impression of their effectiveness in our game.

[zzcat]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

zzcat: I can see why you think the Zmey is overpowered, but I don't think he is. I did quite a lot of tests against a mundane army of Man knights, without mage support. Before I added the tail (which provides repel), the zmey (with current stats) was always killed, after killing maybe 6-10 knights. I want the Zmey to be a MONSTER - it should be the scariest animal-type monster in the entire game, hence it should be able to take on large numbers of mortal troops (I don't think it will ever compete with a true SC with full slots). The previous incarnation was always killed almost immediately after killing hardly anyone.

However, I would not be averse to reducing the attack on the tail by a couple of points (makes a surprisingly large difference), or to increasing the cost a little. I should perhaps do some tests against an army with mage support. My feeling is that the Zmey would still be killed, but at least he now provides some threat, as desired.

Have you equiped them? In my test a zmey with body ethereal/lucky pendant/girdle of might/Lycanthropos' Amulet is virtually unkillable for regular troops w/o mage support. In attachment I used a nerfed version of Zmey(with old stat but more hp and tail and making fire breath its primary attack) but it still routed 100 knights quite easily and killed half of them.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

Since nobody managed to win with Eriu using this guide nor this bless yet, I guess having no endgame magic paths doesnt pay off around turn 60 or so after all.
I have no doubt it works like a charm on Sidhe Lords tho.

Well keep in mind it doesn't have to be an absolute thing: you can get an E9N4 bless and still have magic diversity if you choose something like an Arch Druid (in CBM). Vanheim is a different situation and the idea of skipping a bless is quite possible with troops like Skinshifters and Einheres and access to blood magic. Alternate approaches are certainly possible but I'd recommend at least an E4N4 bless. All your mages are sacred and even if you don't think a major bless worthwhile Sidhe Lords are your best recruit everywhere mage and thugging is what they're designed for.

Having said that, I ran a test with the Sidhe Lord not casting bless. I had to swap out some of the equipment; Black Steel Plate to help with protection and an Amulet of Reinvigoration in the now open slot where the Bracers were. I actually tried to really help the Shishi with this test: the Sidhe Lord used a Vine Shield instead of an Eye Shield, the Shishi cast flight, and the Sidhe Lord didn't have even minor regeneration.

Sixth Test

Sidhe Lord
Equipment: Frost Brand, Vine Shield, Dragon Helmet, Black Steel Plate, Amulet of Resilience, Pendant of Luck
Script: Barkskin, Mistform, hold, hold, hold, attack
vs.
Female Shishi
Equipment: Girdle of Might, AoMR, Ring of CR
Script: Mirror Image, Mistform, Flight, hold, hold, attack

battle 1 - Shishi routed
battle 2 - Sidhe Lord routed
battle 3 - Shishi routed

[llamabeast]

Okay, I am going to reduce the attack of the Shishi by either 6 or 8. Place your votes now.

zzcat, I think you are right - I will nerf the Zmey somewhat, although he will finish closer to his new power level than his old (which was quite useless). I will incorporate the shapechange fixes you noticed, and put the firebreath first as suggested. I'll also fix the shishi's 175 SR while I'm at it.

I think I may increase the cost of the Grendelkin from 40 to 50 gems.

I'm saying all this because I've run out of time to actually do it tonight, and won't get a chance for a few days, so there is some opportunity for people to comment on the proposed changes.

I would also really appreciate it if people had a look at the other summons to see if there are any other concerns. I would like the next version to stand for some time as I think it's best if things don't change too much (how is anyone ever meant to learn tactics if things change all the time?).

I've noticed that comments come thick and fast in response to bold claims by people. Hence I make these bold claims:

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

WENDIGO IS SLOW TO GROW AND CONSEQUENTLY USELESS

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

[Gregstrom]

I vote to reduce Shishi attack by 6.

[Zeldor]

I still think that Shishis are not OP at all, as Valerius tests show. I wouldn't complain if there were a bit weaker vs undead/demons and stronger than now against normal stuff. I almost lost one to some markata PD + B1 mages last turn :P And you can always drop on them with proper gear and they cannot even run away really...

[Squirrelloid]

I disagree on any lowering of Shishi attack before we get some real data. Valerius's data is the best we have and points to there being no real problem.

Also, a fricking air mage who is summonable with air gems is a godsend for magic diversifying off a pretender. Rocs are fricking awesome - they aren't for air powers, they're for nations diversifying into air. Its like saying Kokythiads are useless because its a WD mage that requires WD to summon - NO.

Edit:
Zzzcat: Llama's point is a Zmey should kill arbitrarily large armies if the armies don't have mage support. The fact that they actually do so is not a problem. Ie, 'virtually unkillable for normal troops without mage support' is what they're supposed to be. WAD.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Okay, I am going to reduce the attack of the Shishi by either 6 or 8. Place your votes now.

zzcat, I think you are right - I will nerf the Zmey somewhat, although he will finish closer to his new power level than his old (which was quite useless). I will incorporate the shapechange fixes you noticed, and put the firebreath first as suggested. I'll also fix the shishi's 175 SR while I'm at it.

I think I may increase the cost of the Grendelkin from 40 to 50 gems.

I'm saying all this because I've run out of time to actually do it tonight, and won't get a chance for a few days, so there is some opportunity for people to comment on the proposed changes.

I would also really appreciate it if people had a look at the other summons to see if there are any other concerns. I would like the next version to stand for some time as I think it's best if things don't change too much (how is anyone ever meant to learn tactics if things change all the time?).

I've noticed that comments come thick and fast in response to bold claims by people. Hence I make these bold claims:

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

WENDIGO IS SLOW TO GROW AND CONSEQUENTLY USELESS

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

I guess if you are going to reduce the attack skill of shishis, 6 is probably the maximum that is doable (otherwise they will be not much use against demon thugs/SCs, and I like that they have a niche there). 8 definitely seems excessive, even with 6 attacks to whittle defense down. EDIT: I've just realized shishi currently have 17 attack skill. I remembered reading that they had 20. My vote is thus changed to not lowering the attack skill to below 14.

I think Asynja should probably be left alone for a bit. They are a bit frail as SCs, and though stealth+glamour means it's really hard to catch one, right now in MP games it's looking like they may be sidelined a bit as SCs and end up more as casters.

The wendigo right now is in an interesting spot, as an SC available with only 6 in a school. They take a while to grow, but they are still useful before fully grown and while it's a bit painful to have to wait for them, you can have a decent number of them before other people have access to real SCs. I think these need more testing before changes are made to them.

Rocs provide access to air magic, as squirrel said, and that definitely makes them not useless! Especially with the siege bonus 30, they should be excellent army support midgame casting fog warriors/wrathful skies/etc in battle, and helping break down walls on the strategic map. The patrol bonus could also be useful in certain situations, though it's not really what I'd buy them for. More of a useful bonus. They are also certainly usable as light raiders earlier on, and counter raiders, which should be able to kill lower end thugs. By the way it is these with the 175 shock resist, not shishis.

I think the Treant needs to lose the rooted form, but have the rooted bonuses transferred to the walking form. It is more cool presently in my opinion, but it would be much more usable with this change. Having to root to be an effective fighter could lead to some verious silly scenarios, like the treant trying to rout but not being able to move, so it dies even if it could kill what's attacking it. Also it should probably gain a little AP, or possibly instead 1 more mapmove. One or the other IMO.

Grendelkin are awesome but don't have great skill and have no magic or resists. They're definitely killable, it is just very hard. They could maybe lose some strength. Go down by 10 or so. They should be very killable by armies though, and it's hard for them to catch SCs. I'd like to see people use these more before they're changed too much