Balancing Race Construction

[PvK]

Hardy Industrialists can be worthwhile, depending on how you usually operate, and combined with construction aptitude, can make superlative builders. It is also interesting that it affects only planetary shipyards, so don't replace it. I wouldn't make it any cheaper, either.

I strongly disagree that Propulsion Experts is overvalued. I would say it is actually far too cheap. Should be 1500 or more. Speed, especially FREE speed that is directly ADDED to other speed, is a massive tactical and economic advantage.

I think the racial techs are pretty well balanced with equal points.

Emotionless has the "happiness refund" and yes it does deny you some easy Jubilant bonuses when things are going well. As soon as you get in a serious war and lose a system or two full of planets, though, you will find out why it is an advantage, as all of your planets go to rioting, your 200-planet empire goes bankrupt in a few turns, all your construction queues halt due to lack of resources, your allies' economies are wrecked by their loss of trade income from you you, and your ships start falling apart and have to be mothballed, etc etc.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The value of HI is dependent upon play style. It is more cost effective than 25 points in construction. If you hardly use any ship or base space yards, and a lot of planetary space yards, HI is rather valuable.

How is 25 points in construction less valuable than hardy industrialists when they both cost exactly the same amount, both give the same benefit to planets, and the construction points also work on space based shipyards?

[oleg]

Because they add up. True, if you want to be inside 25% limit, + to construction is better. But if you want to get really fast builders, say 150%, then HI is a must.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by PvK:
As soon as you get in a serious war and lose a system or two full of planets, though, you will find out why it is an advantage, as all of your planets go to rioting,

By the time your planets get to rioting, it doesn't make a differenace anyway, you are beat. It may accelerate the end a bit, but it won't change the result.

But even at that it is so easy to prevent this from happening. An urban pac center, some warships in orbit, even a couple dozen troops on each planet(my personal fav) will all keep your people quite jubilant right up to the point when the enemy comes and glasses them into nothingness. And a 40% empire wide[EDIT:Oops, this should be 20%, but that's still pretty darn good] bonus to resource production is nothing to snif at. That and a 200 planet empire against a 200 planet empire of emotionless people and you won't have to worry about them glassing your planets and making your people unhappy, cause you will be glassing theirs.

Of course with your mod, troops don't make the pop happy, so perhaps there may be more of a use for the emotionless trait. But in the stock game I just dont' see it. Other than maybe for role play reasons. But if you use it, you have to work harder at the economics.

Geoschmo

[ July 25, 2002, 00:30: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Will]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
40% empire wide bonus to resource production

Umm... ok, I'm probably missing something here... but I thought Riots = 0%, Angry = 80%, Unhappy = 90%, Indifferent = 100%, Happy = 110%, Jubilant = 120%. So where's that extra 20 coming from?

• SJ, thanks... knew I was missing something
  

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Will:
Umm... ok, I'm probably missing something here... but I thought Riots = 0%, Angry = 80%, Unhappy = 90%, Indifferent = 100%, Happy = 110%, Jubilant = 120%. So where's that extra 20 coming from?

No Will, you are correct. It used to be 140%, but it was changed somewhere along the line to 120%. But a 20% empire wide bonus to production is still nothing to snif at. Not when it is so easy to get, and costs you nothing in racial points.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

"But a 20% empire wide bonus to production is still nothing to snif at. Not when it is so easy to get, and costs you nothing in racial points"

Actually only a 10% bonus IIRC. Emotionless gets you Happy effect. Assuming that wasn't changed too?

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Actually only a 10% bonus IIRC. Emotionless gets you Happy effect. Assuming that wasn't changed too?

Well, as a matter of fact you are right. And I think that is really stupid but emotionless populations do in fact get the 10% bonus as if they were happy. I had assumed they got no modifier as if they were indiferent.

So I guess my whole point is very nearly been made moot. Although I would still never spend 3000 points for it when I can keep my people jubilant for nothing (in racial points anyway). I suppose if it were made cheap enough in a mod it would make some sense, but even then likely not. I guess it just depends on if the 10% empire wide production bonus is worth it to you that you don't mind a little the little bit of micromanagment it takes to make your people love you. To me it's not.

Geo

[PvK]

BUMP!

People are talking a lot about this lately, and I was just doing a search to find prior discussions for my "PvK Balance" mod which I'm working on. So, I thought I'd bump this up so interested folks could check out the old discussion.

PvK

[PvK]

Oh, I should add a reply to Geo's later Posts on this thread.

The two 200-planet empires at war, one Emotionless. If the Emotionless one loses any number of planets or ships, it will keep on producing and constructing normally with the remaining planets. If the non-Emotionless one ever has a setback and loses a fair number of planets and/or ships, it will be vulnerable to having ALL of its remaining planets go to rioting and produce and construct nothing. That's pretty valuable (unless you always win ).

PvK