Has anyone been playing the new Kursk Campaign?

[Cameronius]

If you've been playing the new Kursk campaign let me know what you think of it. I'd love some feedback, good or bad. I might even be persuaded to give a tip or two.

[Jaakko]

Played it and liked it. The scenarios were rather big (as they should when it's about Kursk), in the upper limit of my taste, but the moderate number of scenarios made up for it. Everything went better than I expected, except for having most of my infantry and light vehicles massacred and having to "sell" the rest to maintain the far more important Tigers. Most of my casualties were caused by dug-in units and artillery. Mid-way I only had two pioneer squads for infantry but somehow that was enough. In a twisted way, not having to micro-manage loads of infantry made it easier for me to focus on the overall tactical progress.

The tank heavy enemy counter-attacks were not a big problem. SU-76s caused more damage and even casualties than did the T-34s, due to their slightly more powerful guns. Some of my Tigers got well over hundred kills during the campaign. Personally I'd plan the counter-attacks a bit more cunningly while making the dug-in enemies slightly easier to overcome. Just a matter of taste, wouldn't do it at the expense of historical accuracy.

As for historical accuracy, I've read that the SU-85 didn't make it in time for the battle of Kursk*. If that's confirmed, I'd replace them with some other tanks or assault guns. Luckily I didn't lose any tanks to those SU-85s, which theoretically had the most potential to damage. I've also had the impression that it was mostly if not solely the lightened KV-1S models used in Kursk, not the heavier KV-1 models. If so, I'd put in more KV-1S tanks.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-85

[Rosollia]

As for historical accuracy, I've read that the SU-85 didn't make it in time for the battle of Kursk*.

SU-85 seems to have been issued to troops in August 1943. The production start date has been given as "mid-1943". The game has the availability date set to June 1943 which is perhaps too early.

[DRG]

The SU-85 has been available in the Russian OOB in June 1943 for AT LEAST a decade. One day I'll dig up all the old copies of the game I have on CD so I can check back further but up to now I've always had better things to do so I can say that as of Nov 2002 it has been set to a 6/43 introduction and that up until now it's not been challenged

I will be happy to change that if solid info can be found that is NOT based on a wiki quote.

Don

[DRG]

After digging around my library and the 'net it would appear September 1943 would be a more appropriate introduction date but as always, sources do not agree. Profile Publications #21 Su-85 / SU-100 says that there were 100 in service by the end of 1943 on the Dneiper and Ukrainian fronts. "Soviet tank units" only says " late 1943 " . Various online source suggest the first tanks reached their units in August but were not in combat until September giving the crews a month to learn how to use the vehicle so I have changed the start date for Russian Unit 33 to 9/43 from 6/43 and as a result, to keep the formation from breaking up, unit 318 has to stay in service a month longer than it does now.

Nothing is ever "simple"


Don

[Jaakko]

Originally Posted by DRG

The SU-85 has been available in the Russian OOB in June 1943 for AT LEAST a decade. One day I'll dig up all the old copies of the game I have on CD so I can check back further but up to now I've always had better things to do so I can say that as of Nov 2002 it has been set to a 6/43 introduction and that up until now it's not been challenged

I will be happy to change that if solid info can be found that is NOT based on a wiki quote.

Don

Sure, wiki quotes don't prove anything, but shouldn't the burden of proof be more on positive claims, such a "X type of tank WAS used in Kursk"? Also, OOB availability and campaign design are not the same thing. I have no problem with SU-85 being available in the game by the earliest theoretically possible date, just wouldn't use it for Kursk without further confirmation. In other words, even if it's correct that the SU-85 was available and not just produced by June 1943, it doesn't implicate that it fought the Germans in Kursk.

The question of SU-85's appearance in Kursk is, or at least has been, a controversial issue. The assumption of SU-85's participation is present in several older sources predating the internet, which of course doesn't make the assumption wrong. That is not the case with the vast majority of armoured vehicles appearing in the game campaign under discussion. Tigers, Stugs, Hummels, T-34s, SU-76s etc. being there isn't disputed by anyone.

But as I understood this game campaign wasn't even meant to be an exact as possible simulation of the historical campaign, it doesn't matter so much IMO. It doesn't promise anything it doesn't provide. I took it more as an adaptation of one interpretation of history, as seen in the tank simulation Panzer Elite. Taken as such, I found it well-designed and entertaining.

[Cameronius]

Jaakko and Doug,
Thanks for your replies. I was aware that the SU-85 was likely not present at Kursk. I used it anyway in the hope might provide more parity against the all powerful Tigers. I was not aware of the lack of KV-1c's in favour of KV-1s. It is interesting but would not have factored into my design. Jaakko it was my intention to make the dug in positions tough to crack forcing the player to use a combined arms approach and holding back a reserve to deal with the heavy counter-attacks. The game (and reality) highly favour the defensive posture and I find it's use in scenario design a very effective method of making the AI harder to beat. It sounds like your experience with the campaign was what I expected from an experienced player. I am very glad you enjoyed it!

[Rosollia]

I took it more as an adaptation of one interpretation of history, as seen in the tank simulation Panzer Elite. Taken as such, I found it well-designed and entertaining.

Just out of curiosity is it the "Panzer Elite" ww2 tank simulator game from 1999 or the 2006 "Panzer Elite Action" FPS shoot'em up?

[Jaakko]

Originally Posted by Rosollia

Just out of curiosity is it the "Panzer Elite" ww2 tank simulator game from 1999 or the 2006 "Panzer Elite Action" FPS shoot'em up?

Completely forgot about the newer one, which I haven't tried and don't intend to due to the frankly repulsive ads I saw. So I've only played the old one, years ago. The original game had no Eastern Front action, but fan mods had some. Not sure if they had Kursk, but I can imagine some of the scenarios being "converted" to SPWW2.

[Jaakko]

Originally Posted by Cameronius

I was aware that the SU-85 was likely not present at Kursk. I used it anyway in the hope might provide more parity against the all powerful Tigers.

They surely would've caused me some tank losses, had I not chosen them my primary targets the moment they appeared. Therefore I took more damage from the "next best gun" carried by the SU-76. Could SU-152 have had the same effect, perhaps with some added experience value?

I was not aware of the lack of KV-1c's in favour of KV-1s. It is interesting but would not have factored into my design.

This is again one thing I just strongly remember reading from various sources, but before making any changes I'd rely on actual sources or people like Don who check them more systematically.

The game (and reality) highly favour the defensive posture and I find it's use in scenario design a very effective method of making the AI harder to beat.

Yes, and honestly you couldn't have made the counter-attacks any bigger without making it ridiculous. While it's possible for a human player to use T-34s effectively against Tigers, the AI just can't do that on a relatively open terrain. Perhaps you could fiddle a bit with the timing and way-points of the counter-attacks, some well-placed smoke-screens, but I can't think of a single simple solution.

It sounds like your experience with the campaign was what I expected from an experienced player. I am very glad you enjoyed it!

As much as I like the game, IMO it should have more campaigns of approximately this scale. Takes enough effort to make decent separate scenarios, haven't even bothered to try making a small campaign yet...