Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[DRG]

As we have said, over and over and over and over ........making a specific unit the HQ section is not a good idea because a human opponent will find and target them, Sure we could make them all 10 men and they will be the first units killed because a 10 man unit stands out like a sore thumb in a group of 19 man units which is why we avoid doing that and we had worked out compromise in unit / formation construction to allow for that but every year someone comes along and wants us to do it "by the book". The only reason I haven't told you to do the work yourself and I'll put the OOB into the game is because I know I'd end up with even more work to do

So you are free to make suggestions but I'm the one who has to make it work and YES, I could re-nationalize those units and have done that in the past but I tend to do that to spread the work over a couple years as re-nationalizing is just a way to delay their inevitable deletion so I will be deleting those units and rebuilding the scenarios............. now wasn't someone going to take a break from force feeding me OOB corrections ? I know you mean well but it's all getting to be a bit much. Your last two posts probably generated three additional days of work., Go Christmas shopping or something......

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Speaking of class 51:
- 286 Rifle Squad - correct, but weapon 144 wz.29 Carbine or 173 wz.98 Carabine (should be Carbine) is more appropriate than rifle
- 286 Rifle Squad - Lebel should be changed to Berthier, and it should end in 1934
- 305 Rifle Squad with two Lebels - redundant, especially, that command sections even had less rifles, than men

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Oh, I forgot: regular infantry squads with Berthier rifles should also have weapon 91 VB Rifle Grnd (with unknown number of ammo, say 10 like unit #287 of 1940)

If you are going to offer suggestions to correct our work then you better start double checking your work so I don't have to guess what you are referring to

Two references to 286 ? Maybe the second one should be 304 ?

unit #287 has 10 rifle grenades because it has 10 men. If it had 12 men there would be 12 rifle grenades

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

If you are going to offer suggestions to correct our work then you better start double checking your work so I don't have to guess what you are referring to

Two references to 286 ? Maybe the second one should be 304 ?

Yes, sir. Sorry, sir.

Originally Posted by DRG

unit #287 has 10 rifle grenades because it has 10 men. If it had 12 men there would be 12 rifle grenades

I don't know, so you can put how many you like - however, not all soldiers had VB launchers.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

As we have said, over and over and over and over ........making a specific unit the HQ section is not a good idea because a human opponent will find and target them, Sure we could make them all 10 men and they will be the first units killed because a 10 man unit stands out like a sore thumb in a group of 19 man units which is why we avoid doing that and we had worked out compromise in unit / formation construction to allow for that but every year someone comes along and wants us to do it "by the book".

OK. I didn't know that, but anyway it was only a weak suggestion (I wrote, that "it probably won't be practical").

Originally Posted by DRG

So you are free to make suggestions but I'm the one who has to make it work and YES, I could re-nationalize those units and have done that in the past but I tend to do that to spread the work over a couple years as re-nationalizing is just a way to delay their inevitable deletion so I will be deleting those units and rebuilding the scenarios.

It seems, than in case of infantry, the only problem, when the unit was deleted from OOB, is lack of picture (and lack of data on information screen). The unit still moves and shoots. I agree, that such situations should be avoided, but it doesn't affect playing like removal of a vehicle (IIRC the game takes icon, armour and picture from the OOB).

Anyway, I have an idea: some of infantry units in OOB could be replaced with similar Obrona Narodowa (National Defence - territorial army), which should give them pictures. They existed in a few variants and were less uniform, than regular infantry.

Now we have only units 310 and 311 Obrona Naradowa (should be Narodowa) - class Militia and Militia support (with LMG), used in formation 310 Militia Platoon.

Firstly, according to http://wp39.struktury.net/obrona-nar...-typu-iii.html there should be 16 men only in a squad (in type II and III battalions, other types had 14-15).
Secondly, ON units were created only in mid-37, earlier they were non existing.
Picture 32134 (like of unit 311) should be used for all, including 310 (it has some insurgents rather).

Apart from these two units, armed with Mauser rifles, there should be created units with more popular Berthier rifles.
In a class Militia there could be created:
- Berthier, grenades (radio 2)
- Berthier, #91 VB, grenades (radio 0)
- wz.98 carbine, wz.28 LMG, grenades (radio=1 - there existed some platoons with LMGs in each squad)
- Berthier, wz.28 LMG, grenades (radio=1)
- #112 Lebel, VB, grenades (radio 1) (optional)

In a class Militia Support there could be:
- Berthier, #95 7.92 wz.08 LMG, VB, grenades (radio 2)

Formation 310 Militia Platoon should have three squads only (one Militia support and two Militia). Maybe a better name is "ON Militia Plt"?

There could be also created ON company, but maybe next year...

As for weapon #95 7.92 wz.08 LMG - correct name is "7.92 08/15 LMG" or "7.92 wz08/15LMG".
Its HEK should be at least 5 - now it's 4, while it had a ROF like all other heavy Maxims - and practical ROF of a belt-fed 08/15 was higher, than of magazine LMGs.
On the other hand, I've just read in a newest book on Polish Maxims, that MG-08/15 was rather inaccurate because of its bipod in a centre of gravity, and water spilling in a radiator along with barrel recoil... Now it has accuracy 23, better then Bren (21) and BAR (17)

BTW: weapon 185 wz.1928 LMG should be better named "7.92 wz.28 LMG"


It is one of last suggestions from my side - I'm not going to review all formations

[Pibwl]

As for VB rifle grenades (Polish weapon 91, French weapon 93), their scaled range was 170 m, max range 190 m (detailed Polish page http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/grannasvb-fr/) - now it has range 2.

[DRG]

OK, but 9 countries use that weapon not just those two

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK, but 9 countries use that weapon not just those two

I hoped, that you have some magic tools to find other OOBs using it, so I haven't checked remaining 41 OOBs, indicating only its "mother" French OOB.

Michal

[Pibwl]

A minor issue: 694 TK-1 and 695 TK-2 have swapped pictures (TK-1 had sprocket wheel at the rear)

[DRG]

...most of these are "minor issues" Michal. The chance that any of these changes is going to affect the outcome of a battle in the game are about as close to zero as you can get. That said this correction will go in along with the rest

[blazejos]

Polish 75mm AA Strachowice gun was found some time ago in artillery museum in Sankt-Petersburg. This gun was captured by Red Army 1939 and is only surviving piece of this equipment now very likely.
http://www.dobroni.pl/rekonstrukcje,...tersburgu,8019


btw
Will be nice to have this gun inside game. That was AA gun but also with possibility for ground fire and there are stories about using them in Starachowice factory against German advanced tanks. Advancing was stooped and Germans HQ reported strong AT defence. That was probably most mighty polish AT gun when fire against ground target. Icon for that gun is already existing 2815 & 2816 in winter camo