Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

...most of these are "minor issues" Michal. The chance that any of these changes is going to affect the outcome of a battle in the game are about as close to zero as you can get.

Well, in early 1930s the Polish infantry, thanks to LMGs and VB grenades can possibly win some battle

I'm attaching a couple of additional or improved pictures.

[DRG]

Let me know if you ever have a squad that lasts long enough to throw all those grenades

[blazejos]

Just do like to add some lbms photos of polish KbUr AT-Rifle in Polish German and Italian service

Generally 7.92 Maroszek Kb Urugwaj wz.35 was in service in many nations. Germans captured around 700 of them and using until 1942 they sell them also to Italy and Finish army also buy them together with other ex-polish equipment they were know as 8 mm pst kiv/38 http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_RIFLES2.htm . Soviet also has plenty of this AT rifles captured after 17 of September and used them as is know especially in desperate days of December 1941 in Moscow Defense.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Units 28 and 200 [class Gun tank] should be merged into one IMO. The only difference is, that #200 is available in 6-7/44 and has radio code 0, while #28 is available in 8/44-12/46 and has radio code 1, which is strange, since it should be more popular with time, and there's nothing, that could replace it in Sherman troops.
IMO there should be only unit 28 left, with a radio code 0, available from 6/44 until the end.

No.

The only problem with unit 200 is it has sabot and it only became available 8/44 ( this matches the Brit and canadian OOB ) and that's why unit 200 is there for those two months but ammo hadn't been adjusted. It has now. The AP/Sabot count has been corrected to sync with the Brit and CDN OOBs

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:


375 44 Tank Sqdn
376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK)

They seem to be on AI pick list in 06/44 - 12/45

Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. He might be wrong, though I can't find a reliable source on British tank troops in 1944 - some web pages say 3 tanks, some 4 tanks.

Such Firefly troops were used by the 1st Arm.Div. in Western Europe in 6/44-10/44, and by the 2nd Arm.Bde. in Italy in 2/45-12/45

"three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly"........... including a firefly WHAT ? tank ? Platoon ?. It appears you are saying these should be two tanks plus a firefly instead of 3+1 but it could also be you are saying one of the platoons was pure firefly and therefore there should be three tank platoons plus a firefly platoon

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

"three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly"........... including a firefly WHAT ? tank ? Platoon ?.

I mean a troop of 2 Shermans and a Firefly. Sorry for not being clear.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

It might be noted, that in 11/39 - 2/40 and 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only (in UK and Egypt/Palestine).

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:

-snip


377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 09/42-05/44
378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 07/40-08/42
379 Cruiser Tk Trp - Available: 07/40-05/44
- names are not appropriate, for they also use Valentines (even as a template unit). Before 4/44 Polish tanks were used for training,

-snip



As for period from 11/39 until 12/43, it seems, that the AI buys an allied French or British infantry tank company. It seems quite reasonable, for there were no Polish tank units in field at that time,

-snip


Michal

there are now NO Polish armour between, as you say "11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only "

I'm not building training tank formations for Poland. Sorting this all out so it all works at the end is PITA and I am not the least bit interested in doing it again next year so I hope you're happy with what you end up with since you have given me the "Polish tanks were used for training only between 11/40 - 3/44 more than once so that's what you're getting. The AI will be picking allied formations and a human player can pick allied if they need armour during the interm and I'm ripping out everything post the fall of France that isn't used by a line unit starting 4/44.


Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

I'm not building training tank formations for Poland. Sorting this all out so it all works at the end is PITA and I am not the least bit interested in doing it again next year so I hope you're happy with what you end up with since you have given me the "Polish tanks were used for training only between 11/40 - 3/44 more than once so that's what you're getting. The AI will be picking allied formations and a human player can pick allied if they need armour during the interm and I'm ripping out everything post the fall of France that isn't used by a line unit starting 4/44.

Don

As you wish, though I can't say I'm happy with it.
I think, that with minor tweaks they could stay - it would be pity to throw all Crusaders, Valentines, Churchills II. In case of invasion on the UK they would have been used... what leads me to a thought, that Canadian Rams should be thrown out for the same reason (BTW: Polish 1st Arm.Div. on Crusaders took part in great manoeuvres against Canadian 4th Arm.Div. on Rams).

Leave Panzer IIIs and M3 Stuarts at least - they were very close to see action in Middle East.

[DRG]

At least you're predictable. I fully expected you to bring up the Ram in the Canadian OOB
"In case of invasion on the UK " you can use the allies button. YOU are the one that repeatedly tells me this or that unit was only used for training or not used leaving formations in tatters........ you asked for it. That's why half the armoured cars are gone and the SP arty.

34 Priest - wasn't used by the Polish
37 Bishop - wasn't used by the Polish

43 Humber Mk IV - for training only
44 Daimler A/C - for training only

All gone, And everything else like that....... gone. What exactly did you expect was going to happen ? That I was going to hunt around finding gaps with things you'll tell me later the Poles didn't have........... that's why all this crap is in there now because previous people who have had to wade through this mess tried to make it work as a continuous set of units and formations with " could have used" units that you are now asking me to remove but this mass of changes you want doesn't allow for that.... Tell me Michal.... did you make the changes to the OOB you ask for as you wrote them down to see how all this would work together ? I doubt it. That's what I'm trying to do now

Captured tanks are a different matter but you need to be VERY CLEAR as to what armoured units saw combat and when. When did the TD's enter combat, the light tanks......... 4/ 44 ??

You tell me " 441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer "......... which contradicts what you told me that there was NO Polish armour until early 1944...... now you say different. What's the real story here ? It's all fine to write this stuff down but making it work is a different matter. Garbage in , garbage out........... you say no armour until early 1944 then say Crusaders were used from 9/42. Explain this so the poor dumb grunt working 14 hour days on this crap can understand it clearly

Don

[Pibwl]

A revenge for pestering you is sweet, isn't it?

Originally Posted by DRG

At least you're predictable. I fully expected you to bring up the Ram in the Canadian OOB

I thought about it only after a while, when I thought about Polish troops in Crusaders...

Originally Posted by DRG

"In case of invasion on the UK " you can use the allies button. YOU are the one that repeatedly tells me this or that unit was only used for training or not used leaving formations in tatters........ you asked for it.

But in case of invasion it would be Polish armoured units with tanks with "PL" badge, not the allies.
Well, I wanted to be honest...

Originally Posted by DRG

You tell me " 441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer "......... which contradicts what you told me that there was NO Polish armour until early 1944...... now you say different. What's the real story here ? It's all fine to write this stuff down but making it work is a different matter. Garbage in , garbage out........... you say no armour until early 1944 then say Crusaders were used from 9/42. Explain this so the poor dumb grunt working 14 hour days on this crap can understand it clearly

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I wrote, that in 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only. So there was no armour in field. Crusaders were used for training yet longer, but I wanted to cut them when real tanks became available.

There was one exception: Carpathian Lancer Regiment took positions in Egypt in 7/42 - 9/42, ready to defend the Nile Delta, and it used PzKpfw-IIIJ and, since 9/42, M3 Stuarts (and Marmon-Herrington and Rolls-Royce ACs).

I have an idea: maybe we could keep all training tanks, like Covenanter, Crusader III, Valentine (all models), Churchill II in one generic category (like "tank") and use them in simple generic formations for a whole period from 11/40?... Please?... For example, they could simply replace existing Infantry tank formations (without bothering with CS tanks).

Matilda I and Mk.VIb would be also desirable, but of minor importance. We could do without Crusader II and IICS. If you want, I can sum it up once again, giving dates of availability for all these tanks.

And the second thing: normal armoured units could be used since 1/44, when the 2nd Armoured Brigade was already deployed in Italy, and combat-ready, using Shermans. It entered combat at Monte Cassino or a bit earlier (4-5/44), but it could have been as well available from 1/44, which BTW gives us a tidy date. The same concerns TDs and light tanks (M5)

Michal