IDF OOB project.

[gingertanker]

I think that this requires a more in depth check before we remove towed guns from the oob completely...I need to try and find a person who knows if there are other towed guns I don't know of. You have to remember the IDF has a massive reserve force with many strange units and capabilities. I will get to towed guns it will just take a while.

[shahadi]

I would not favor removing towed guns because that would hamper the development of scenarios for earlier periods. I'd say, cap the availability of towed guns to 2014. No purchases beyond 2014 if it is true that the Artillery Corps removed towed pieces in 2014 in favor of SP units.

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[gingertanker]

Okay we need to roll back now for a few moments:

Unit 70: "Nagman" - an extremely confusing unit. Nagman is a M113 with protected superstructure from the early 1990s. But the unit is date to 2000, and the image is of a modification named "Kasman Magen". These had larger fully enclosed superstructures for operations in the West Bank and Gaza. They also had Vayzata armor and sometimes Classical armor! I am not sure if it's worth going into this mess at all? Thoughts?

Units 071 and 078: I remain skeptical that the 30mm Eitan will happen, but if it will it has not yet. As I mentioned elsewhere the current status is the IDF ordered several hundred Eitan AFV's in 2018. They have gone through some training with the Nahal brigade but are not fully online yet. I suggest: Unit 071 and 078: Change start date to 6/19.

M113 chaos:

Unit 083: "Nagmash" - I see this was changed from Bardelas to Nagmash. That's fine. This is, as I mentioned in this thread before, the vanilla M-113. It is very much still in service with reserve units. I will repeat this comment for all M113s- the vastly common armament is the MAG and not the M2HB(source: I was a M113 commander for the last 8 years) suggest:
Unit 083: Change end date to 12/25, change weapon slot 1 to weapon 052 7.62mm FN AAMG

Unit 084 and 098: "Vayzata" is a type of armor applied to M113s. It is a statistical armor meant to cause tumbling in MMG and HMG rounds before they reach the main armor of the vehicle. As it is spaced from the vehicle it gives somewhat of a poor addition to HEAT protection (probably not enough to even stop a rifle grenade). An M113 with this package on is called Nagmash Vayzata or Zelda, this does not merit two units and there should not be different stats. Again the common armament is MAGs. I suggest:
Give unit 084 the armor values of 098(which are slightly loweer). Change armament to 1 MAG AAMG and if you wish another MAG in slot 2.Keep current name of 084.

Unit 085: "Zelda 2" - the later ERA add on plates for M113s never really went into service, but what did is the Classical which is infact the image used for this unit and what the icon looks like. I would:
Rename unit 085 "Classical" and change armament to weapon 052.

[DRG]

70 is easily adjusted for date and armour I have no idea how that could be turned into something described as "this mess" unless you feel it shold not be in the same class as the other Heavy APC's

85 used to be the "Classical".... I'm not sure why it was renamed Zelda 2. Now.... you say it should be renamed back to classical.......OK easy to do and so is changing the 12.7 to a 7.62 FN.... but you say the ERA never happened but don't say they should be removed

??

83 has now been adjusted as has 84 and 98 is "re-nationalize"(so it's still in the OOB but won't show up in the game)

[gingertanker]

The issue with 70 is it can be either of 3 different M113s with superstructure. And I am not sure which it should be. To be honest the practical differences for the game are small.

You see Nagman is short for Nagmash Memugan...This would be IDF M113s with protected superstructures. At first with pen roof, later with closed roof. This started being a thing probably in the mid 80s...Now by 2000 there were two major types of this superstructure. They were generally referred to as Kasman. Kasman/Magen is a large superstructure, Kasman/Maoz is a small superstructure.

And I am not sure this merits 2 or 3 seperate units...
As far as being a HAPC...I guess? In hull protection it is just a M113 with Vayzata. The superstructure is probably MMG proof. Sometimes they had cage armor for RPGs...It's a mess because these are all add ons. To make things worse these were not even that numerous, they were spread out in FOBs that needed them...

Zelda 2 vs Classical: Re-reading my message I see the confusion. Classical was the common name for M113s with ERA and small open top superstructure (as well as an improved break system). Zelda 2 is the name of an armor package which I believe is later to Classical, but even if I am wrong (and they are the same) no one ever called any vehicle in service Zelda 2.

What is the "???" for?

[gingertanker]

I am sorry that this is so weird but the IDF just has a whole mess of M113s and official names and common names are not always the same at all.

[DRG]

The "Heavy APC" unit name is not always an indicator of what the actual function of the APC is... it just one way to differentiate between different apcs my point in this case was should it be in the same formations as the others in that class..( forget what the class is called )

70 can simply be an amalgamation of subtypes of the same basic vehicle

[gingertanker]

If that is the case I would change the Name to Kasman, give it similar hull armor to 084/098.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by gingertanker

What is the "???" for?

You said "Unit 085: "Zelda 2" - the later ERA add on plates for M113s never really went into service"

OK.....The name is back to "Classical" but do I remove the ERA that is now added to unit 85 ?

[gingertanker]

Ah I confused the hell out of you. Sorry.
No, keep the ERA.