Upgrading units after a battle

[chris h]

I'm using the 1st Pz Div as a basis for a Kampfgruppe in a long campaign. Initially the Schutzen Bns in the 1st Pz only had 2 x Schutzen Co, the 3rd Co was a Krad Co. Can I upgrade the Krad Co to Schutzen/PzG given enough upgrade points?

On a similar vain the Schutzen Bn had a MG Co and a HW Co. Are these upgradable to other stuff (I've nothing specific in mind).

[scorpio_rocks]

Given enough upgrade points you can change anything into anything.

Upgrading (changing) units can be a pain if they are not similar types and can mean a couple of steps - remember they will lose some experience when changed to a different tank, for instance, even more if they change class. It is often more efficient to remove the formation and add a new one (in expand core screen).

[chris h]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

Given enough upgrade points you can change anything into anything.

Upgrading (changing) units can be a pain if they are not similar types and can mean a couple of steps - remember they will lose some experience when changed to a different tank, for instance, even more if they change class. It is often more efficient to remove the formation and add a new one (in expand core screen).

That's OK then. I was worried there might be some restrictions.

Thanks

[Mobhack]

There aren't, but there are upgrade path restrictions.

e.g. guns to other arty types, but some of the SP-arty can then morph into a tank type with a second change. Infantry to tank may take some doing - and each change will lose you XP, and the leader ratings will be infantry biased instead of armour.

None of those are documented (it would be far to tortuous to try to explain and 99% of end users would simply be confused).

Basically the best way to find out what can and cannot be done is:
- in a running campaign, save off at the final turn, just before the AI throws the towel in to return to later on (I usually save just before pressing end turn in any case. Helps with the "oops! - I forgot to deal with C Company down South" moments)
- in the upgrade screen, play around to your hearts content with allowed upgrades. This is an experiment, you aren't going to go further. Take notes on a piece of paper/text file etc.
- continue onto the forthcoming battle, and once you get it, don't buy support, and simply exit. Then reload the save you made above
- ditto, if you get a special battle which does not allow fixing just continue onto the next battle's set-up and hit exit, reload the save and continue from there.

Once you have figured out what path changes are needed to get what effect you desire, reload the saved game and this time (read your notes!) you make the requisite changes and proceed with the LC.

However, changing from a totally different formation over to an unrelated one (cavalry to Pzgr say) unless you change the horses/MC to tracked APC and the grunts to appropriately sized teams to load in them - its probably simper to have bought (say) a truck borne grenadier formation and upgrade it to 251s later, or to delete the old one and replace. The latter may be the best route for the Germans - simulating losing experienced guys to form other forces, and you get some new drafts in as replacements.

cheers
Andy

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by chris h

Can I upgrade the Krad Co to Schutzen/PzG given enough upgrade points?

On a similar vain the Schutzen Bn had a MG Co and a HW Co. Are these upgradable to other stuff (I've nothing specific in mind).

Regarding upgrading, remember to pay a bit of attention to the number of units in the formations in question, so that you will have enough units in the first place to upgrade to the new types.

In case of Germans Krad company, you have two options:
- Formation 100: Krad Kompanie (10 units)
- Formation 38: KradschutzenKom (31 units)

For a proper PzG company with transports, you need 30 or so units, so the formation 100 is probably a bad starting point to start upgrading from, unless you want to buy lots of new units to attach to the formation. However, the second one seems to be a pretty good fit for the number of units per company (and per platoon), and the transport motorcycles can be straight upgraded to 251 halftracks and the leg infantry component to panzergrenadiers (I tested).

As regards the MG and HW companies, those sorts of units (MGs, mortars, anti-tank guns, infantry guns, engineers) tend to be pretty useful regardless of the year, so I would not recommend changing them to other unit types but instead maintain them as is to gain experience. That said, anti-tank guns you probably want to upgrade to larger caliber ones when those become available, since the 37 mm door knockers that you start with will be of limited use once you start running into heavier armour like Somua, Matilda or T-34. But MG34 and 81 mm mortar are still respectable anti-infantry weapons even in 1945. As for infantry guns, if you start with the 75 mm version you may want to upgrade it to 150 mm version for significant added firepower - or maybe even to a self-propelled version.

[chris h]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

Regarding upgrading, remember to pay a bit of attention to the number of units in the formations in question, so that you will have enough units in the first place to upgrade to the new types.

In case of Germans Krad company, you have two options:
- Formation 100: Krad Kompanie (10 units)
- Formation 38: KradschutzenKom (31 units)

For a proper PzG company with transports, you need 30 or so units, so the formation 100 is probably a bad starting point to start upgrading from, unless you want to buy lots of new units to attach to the formation. However, the second one seems to be a pretty good fit for the number of units per company (and per platoon), and the transport motorcycles can be straight upgraded to 251 halftracks and the leg infantry component to panzergrenadiers (I tested).

I've gradually worked all that out but both option have problems.

In formation 100 the Krad grp are 12 men giving them some fire power but as you said I need to add extra units once I upgraded to Schutzen.

In 38 the Krad grp are 6 men, should be 9 and would be if the drivers could dismount and joint them. The 6 man grp is total useless in anything other than scouting.

What I would like to do is increase the grp size of the Kradshutzen or, better still, create a new 9 man unit (only need one for early war) but no slots. In either cast I could increase the carry capacity 3xBeiwagenKrad to carry them. A slight cheat but it would work.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by chris h

In 38 the Krad grp are 6 men, should be 9 and would be if the drivers could dismount and joint them. The 6 man grp is total useless in anything other than scouting..

If the krad drivers join the fighting team-- who's driving the MC's that you can still move from place to place?? That's why the Kradschutzen are 6 not 9 men, the other three are with the Krads and can scoot over and load the Kradschutzen when required. If we made that a 9 man unit somebody else would rightly complain if each krad carries a driver and two men who's driving the krads that can still move after all the men dismount and form a 9 man section ?


Don

[Mobhack]

The drivers of the motorcycles are also the "hit points" for the unit, so if you reduced that count then the M/C (whether loaded or unloaded) would waste away quicker under fire.

Same goes for a truck - a light truck with 1 driver is rather more vulnerable compared to one with a co-driver. The 1 crew truck will be marginally cheaper though since the points calculator adds some for each man in a unit.

cheers
Andy

[chris h]

Originally Posted by DRG

If the krad drivers join the fighting team-- who's driving the MC's that you can still move from place to place?? That's why the Kradschutzen are 6 not 9 men, the other three are with the Krads and can scoot over and load the Kradschutzen when required. If we made that a 9 man unit somebody else would rightly complain if each krad carries a driver and two men who's driving the krads that can still move after all the men dismount and form a 9 man section ?


Don

People would complain and it would affect existing scenarios. As for the fighting team I agree with you as long as the unit was being used in the scouting role.

In the early part of the war (I think up to 1942)there were a number of Krad Bn/Kps being used in place of Mot Schutzen Bn/Kps. These were not scouts. When the fighting occurred the whole unit dismounted and fought on foot. It is these units I'm trying to replicate.

[Mobhack]

Then you'll be out of luck - SP does not have the concept of "a pile of disused bikes/motorcycles" that can be temporarily dumped and picked up later.

Units require crew, or they are considered destroyed.

So about the only way you could really do this is to have a motorcycle with the requisite lift for the larger section, plus some crew which are simply ignored in the formations total. Similar to in MBT with APC where the commander usually dismounts as part of the section - sometimes 1 crew is deducted from the vehicle crew to balance, but usually not, if the section needs 8 and the total should be 7+1. The extra crewman (or carry capacity) is neither here nor there, except to the occasional rivet-counter type of nit-picker, whereas the dismount team size is relevant.