confusing Artillery overload score

[Mobhack]

Do you have a save of that so I could check it out?

(The UK artillery is likely to be general support, so a bit cheaper), but something does seem off here.

[grond69]

I'm not being argumentative, and it doesn't really matter, but you can't buy offboard arty by individual tubes. if you select a battery (bty) it will show one line on the top display on the right, but if you look at the bottom display, you will see the 4 tubes that make up that battery. But it doesn't matter! You spent 2105 on arty and 3259 on non-arty (if my math is right). A core of 3259 allows you to spend 575 on arty for a total of 3834. If your opponent is awarded 50% of the overspend, then the AI should have got 765 points. Close enough to what you saw

Keep in mind, the AI CANNOT spent more than they are allowed (see Andy's note on how arty can be cheaper than you might think). So, if an advance is 2x for the attacker, then the AI spent 10,728. If it spent 6030 on non-arty, then 4698 were spent on arty. Assuming that the advancing side is allowed to spend 30%, then the AI overspent by 2114 points which should have awarded you 1057 points. Not even close!

[gdpsnake]

I have nine lines of 10.5 cm artillery in my core (3 lines times three) representing the three artillery abt units I bought for my core. If 1 line in a tank company is one tank on the map then I assume 1 line of artillery is 1 tube on the map and one battery off map is 3-5 tubes?

I am probably confusing apples and oranges between tubes, guns and batteries but no matter. The numbers I stated for purchase, force values, etc. are correct or close. I did forget a few AI units in the count like the 40mm bofors guns, some ATR units and small stuff the AI had in addition to what was listed at the end of the battle but the total was clearly at least twice my force value.

I don't have a save of the game since I pressed on. But my core is exactly as I listed. The purchase price for the artillery part of my core force is three artillery abt's at 600 points each for 1800 points. 1800 of my core force value 5355 points is the 37% number. I spent less than 500 on support points, the 184 times 2 of the two IG companies and a few booby traps.

At the end, I carefully inspected the AI's force list and the game map and counted all the units especially artillery on and off the map. Thirty 25 pounder artillery troop and four 4.5 inch artillery lines off map (3-5 tubes each). Twelve 25 pounder howitzer tubes on map. Then I checked the purchase price for those units against a June 1941 British OOB purchase by starting a random campaign and looking at what could be bought for how much, etc. The artillery cost for a identical purchase was 6016 for June 41.

All the numbers I listed are correct for the organizations and units in the AI's force OOB. I actually missed some units like the 40mm bofors but it was close enough to determine that the AI spent AT LEAST twice my points in purchase and that 6016 of those points; 50%, of the AI's total purchase cost was artillery.

Again, I could not entrench nor were any mines/traps etc. available so I was NOT in a defend battle. It was a 'special battle' following a previous battle that gives the option to accept or refuse.

Again, I get that in a 'special battle' the AI gets 200% of my points or about 12,000 total points? I also get my artillery gave the AI 722 overload points. But I should have received a lot more than 274 points added to my score for the AI artillery, right?.

38-46 splashes (multiple impacts per attack) every turn for the first 6 turns was impressive. I had all of my artillery on counter battery fire and within 10 turns we were down to 16-20 splashes and down to 2-4 by turn 20 (low on ammo as well, I imagine since 60-80 ammo is the usual load for off-board artillery).

Of course, I only had about 20 functional tanks by then with all my men routed, 4 88's gone, my IG guns all routed and the halftracks and 4 AAA run off the map. Thankfully, the enemy tanks were almost all A-13's with six Valentines and two Matildas so I was able to shoot and kill all his vehicles easily from my positions at long range (15 to 25 hexes - I moved my tanks a lot to avoid splashes and find fields of fire) without any threat from the 2 pounder guns after the smoke cleared away. Then I could use my artillery to force a general withdrawal of his men and few heavy tanks. Lastly, I moved forward and re-took the victory hexes; the last re-take causing the end of the battle about turn 35. A few more 'victories' like that and I should just pull out of North Africa.....LOL.

Still can't figure that 274 overload point score added to my total considering half the AI purchase being artillery. If it happens again, I'll save the file.

[grond69]

I concur, sounds like you should have had more overload points from the AI purchase. Keep in mind, as Andy said, that some of the arty that the AI buys might be "direct control" with a 25% discount or "general control" at a 50% discount. Either way, the AI will spend only what points they are allocated by your total purchase. I think saving a game for Andy or Don to look at is a good idea. As I said in my last post, I think you should have gotten more points from AI overload.

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by gdpsnake

TRUST ME. I had 9 total off board guns. 3 sets of 3 10.5 cm guns. Look at the purchase screen under artillery. You get a set of three light artillery guns under the choice "artillery abt (German OOB circa 1941)." 3 batteries of 3 guns is nine guns - TOTAL. A 10.5cm choice costs 579 points and they are off-board assets. These are part of my core force.

My core is 5 companies of PZ III H (25 tanks), 1 company of PZ IV E (4 tanks), 4 companies of PZ grenadiers (4X4) squads for 16 total squads of men, 16 251 halftracks to carry the 16 squads, 4 wheeled Flak 88's, 4 tracked AAA guns, an HQ, and my 3 batteries of 3 guns EACH 10.5 cm artillery - TOTAL NINE GUNS!!!!!!!!

Scenario purchase points were used to buy the 75 mm IG which were in two companies including a spotter for 184 points each. My leftover support points were spent on 5 booby traps and munitions (1 purchase of 2). I ignored the rest.

At the risk of being considered patronising, I would like to point out that you have got some of your terminology a bit wrong, which might lead to misunderstandings.

Firstly, the German formation "Artillerie Abt" (abt = Abteilung) is not a battery, but a battalion, consisting of three batteries (Batterie). 10.5cm Batterie consists of 4 tubes, so you had in total 36 tubes of off-map artillery (in 9 units). This is almost equivalent to the divisional artillery component of 1941 era German armoured division (24 x 10.5 cm tubes and 12 x 15 cm tubes), so it is not a trivial amount.

As for the amount of tubes per off-map unit, it can vary between 1 and 4, with 4 tubes being the most common. You can see the amount of tubes on the unit information screen, shown eg. when purchasing (or from the bombardment menu during the game).

Also, the German term "Zug" (in game usually 4-5 tanks or 3-4 infantry squads) means a platoon, not a company. German term for company is "Kompanie", in game usually abbreviated as "Kp". So your core panzer force was actually 6 platoons of tanks, not 6 companies.

As for counting points for artillery overload, please notice that only the actual shooting (indirect fire) and ammo supply units are counted. The forward observers (such as the ones you purchased in the IG companies) are not counted towards artillery overload.


As for the amount of artillery that the British AI fielded, that would historically amount to approximately two infantry divisions worth of tubes! It must have been quite uncomfortable to be in the receiving end, especially if you are in a sandy desert that does not provide much protection for infantrymen.

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by grond69

Keep in mind, as Andy said, that some of the arty that the AI buys might be "direct control" with a 25% discount or "general control" at a 50% discount.

I did some calculations again. Presuming that the enemy point total was 10728 points, and 274 points were awarded for overload, this would suggest that the points total for the AI artillery was around 3766 points.

If all of the off-map assets would have been bought as general support (50 % discount), then the listed AI artillery force could have been bought for 3196 (including the on-map howitzers), which is under the value given.

Assuming that one of the 25 pdr field regiments was under full control, and all other off-map assets were general support, then the points total would come to 3700 (including the on-map howitzers), which would be quite close.

Description of the artillery barrage thinning down after the really scary initial bombardments might also be an indication of the artillery having been general support.

[Imp]

Well done for taking the time to look at it, there was obviously something wrong when 9 offnap tubes represented 37% of his force with a force that size.

Unless you adjust your force I would expect more of the same in the future, your force is very artillery heavy & quite large. Not going into detail but with that combination I would therefore expect the AI to spend a lot on offmap artillery.
I would stick to a max of 15% in your core, use your support points to buy more for an assault if you need them.

[DRG]

.......and a save game would have prevented a lot of speculation and given us all a clear understanding of the force composition on both sides so IF you suspect this is happening again in the future PLEASE post a save game so we can all look at it.


An "Artillerie Abt" is three batteries of four guns per battery = 12 guns so......

nine lines of 10.5 cm artillery in my core (3 lines times three) representing the three artillery abt units I bought for my core

would be 36 guns....each line represents a battery of four guns and 9x4=36 so you had a lot more arty than you thought you did.
.
Don

[Griefbringer]

On practical note I would like to add that German 10.5 cm howitzer batteries are likely to be of limited utility in off-map counterbattery fire due to their modest range.

[gdpsnake]

Yes, the 10.5's are limited in counter fire since they don't have the range to conduct fire against the 4.5 inch guns for example. However, the bulk of the AI's artillery was 25 pounders and the counter battery fire was extremely (thank god) effective against them. At the end, all but 2 of them were badly damaged/out of action.

Yes, I was confusing the numbers of guns but the purchase points were correct. Thank you for the inputs.

Two reasons I put artillery in my core force:

1). I find that if you don't have artillery assets in your core force you will be overwhelmed. Remember, I am working in the 4000-5000 force size range so the additional purchase points even for an assault rarely allow the buying of more than 2 or 3 off board batteries which is inadequate for any assault. And you will want pioneers to clear mines, perhaps some paratroopers for harassment, etc. I usually see about 2000-2500 support points for an assault and a light battalion of batteries is 600 with a heavy around 800 points. Those batteries don't have unlimited ammo either and over a 40 turn assault you can't spread 1 or 2 battalions of batteries out that long.

2). Units in my core gain experience and when my batteries become veteran or elite they really perform magnificently in counter battery fire solving a lot of enemy artillery issues.

I know many will argue to buy on map artillery assets with a few munitions and I do that to make up for the lack of what I can't buy. The problem is, those on map assets do not counter battery fire and are often taken out by the AI's off board assets meaning one has to have off board assets or be at the mercy of the other side. Nothing works like clearing obstacles with artillery raining down on you - right?! LOL. You want to succeed in a assault? - you have to take out the enemies artillery both on and off board and you need plenty of smoke.

I did not know the AI gets a choice of direct control versus general control in purchase? And these provide discounts? Does a player have that option and how do I use it? Could you reference a place to read up on this in the manual?

Truthfully this seems very imbalanced in game terms since general/direct control for an AI is the about same thing. So the AI gets a much more massive artillery purchase, gets to use it just as effectively either way and pays no penalty because the purchase is 'pro-rated.' I would say that the artillery overload score should be adjusted/based on the actual purchase price of the weapons without any discount.

Anyway, a big thank you to everyone who has/is making inputs. Most appreciated.