What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[Karagin]

Guys they, the DOD and the MIC, have been saying since the late 90s we will have DEW or Laser on AFVs. Yet nothing has happened. In 2008 we were told hey we MIGHT get one for use on the Bradleys to counter IEDs, never happened.

Then while in Korea in 2016, we heard Oh hey, there is talk about a laser weapon being put on the Strykers, and nothing came of that. Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of. That equals more downtime overall for the AFV. All of that has to be factored into the command and control planning. Important for real life, but maybe not for a war game depending on scale and scope.

[Dion]

Lasers might be twice as powerful as people think because they can start fires. I don't think there's one single animal on earth that will not retreat from fire. I imagine they will breakdown easy, just from everyday wear and tear from simple vibrations that its vehicle its mounted too has to endure each day. Probably would require extra maintenance and re-calibrations daily as well. As far as how decisive they will be on the battlefield, only time will tell.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...rones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

[Mustang]

If youre going to assume directed energy weapons start fires, the entire map will become flame hexes fast.

As they said in the old NATO boardgame, to simulate the effects of strategic nuclear war, douse the map in gasoline and get a lighter.

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...rones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

APUs are one more thing to go wrong. I have seen firsthand how badly PMCS is done on stuff, seen how well it is done when it's done right. Worlds apart. Also, the DOD is being told to go all-electric by 3030/35, so what good will an APU do them when the damn batteries weigh more than the overall vehicle can carry?

Same for the laser/DEW system, the power source is still the size of a car to give it any chance to do the damage-to-kill ratio it needs to be effective. Shooting down missiles or artillery is great, but to have them on AFVs and be effective against other AFVs on the same level as chemical projectile guns, you will need a lot of power.

Big Army didn't see ****, contractors saw something and sold them something. We the soldiers pointed out issues to them all the time, sent in tons of reports and it got nothing changed. What we got told was to shut the F-UP and worry about our lanes.

Big Army has been dazzled by the MIC since the 60s with their promises of everything from caseless ammo for small arms, which we still haven't gotten, to laser rifles for the infantry. Every other year you see one or more of the contractors pushing their stuff and nothing comes of it other than a lot of money thrown at a project and little return.

Yes, the Army wants the DEW and they want rail guns and they want power armor suits and they better tanks and they want and want...but they don't get everything. And a lot of their pipedream wants are just that pipedreams from the MIC.

I have a nice collection of old COMBAT ARMS magazines with all the promised stuff the MIC was telling the DOD they would give by this point in time and that was back in the 1980s and here we are still not even seeing less than a quarter of that stuff since most of it was lies.

[MarkSheppard]

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

With no active Counter Drone system (C-UAS) widely deployed, everything is now a target for aerial drones:

For the IDF...drones dropping PG-7VR Tandem Charge HEAT warheads onto the thin roof armor of their Merkavas

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/...58410655285375

https://twitter.com/zhang_heqing/sta...88279315120142

This Merkava Mk3 MBT withstood the hit of a drone dropping PG-7VR munition. The grenade hit directly between two ammunition racks.

A little bit more to the left or right, and that HEAT jet would have hit stowed ammo and...

In the sudan...drones drop mortar shells

https://twitter.com/africaken1/statu...73104419082256

quadcopter drone drop a mortar bomb, on unsuspecting Sudanese rapid support forces militia, sleeping on a rooftop of a building

IDF troops have also been hit with mortar bombs -- there's video of IDF troops sheltering behind a vehicle, only for a HAMAS drone to fly over them and drop a mortar bomb on them from the first days of the current middle eastern conflict.

Abandoned tanks have to be recovered ASAP or else they're destroyed.

https://twitter.com/dronefare/status...81872923910360

Video from the
@DefenceU
showing a drone operator using a drone to remotely drop a mortar bomb in a Russian Tank through the open hatch

This BTW is like what happened on Okinawa 80~ years ago. If Shermans weren't recovered immediately -- at night, Japanese infiltrators would move up and toss explosives into them.

Drones are moving into fully autonomous mode, capable of operating with no operator.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidha...h=540426b866da

Ukrainian developers have confirmed that their drones are now carrying out autonomous strikes on Russian forces without a human operator. This is the first time such drones are known to have been used, as UN allegations about autonomous attacks in Libya in 2020 remain unproven.

The Saker Scout drones can find, identify and attack 64 different types of Russian ‘military objects’ on their own, operating in areas where radio jamming blocks communication and prevents other drones from working.

The quadcopter Saker Scout, came into service last month and can carry three kilos of bombs to a range of around 12 kilometres. Small drones operated by remote control have proved extremely effective as bombers with modified RKG-3 anti-tank grenades or RPG warheads and can destroy even heavy tanks.

Ground Drones -- UGVs are being used now to lay mines and re-mine previously cleared areas under fire:

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/10/...an-troop-said/

On top of that, recently released footage showed operations of Ukrainian mine-laying drones, which were produced on the basis of simple radio-controlled cars. These drones are deploying anti-tank mines not only as close to Russian positions as possible but also on the trails made by the Russian tanks to ensure that if the next assault unit tries to use the safe and tested route, it will for sure get on a mine. Such a specific use allows Ukrainians to respond to new developments as they unfold and bring Russians a lot of headaches.

https://twitter.com/OSINTNic/status/1714752095952212371

Russian drone watches a Ukrainian ground drone lay anti-tank mines (English subtitles)

There are unconfirmed rumors right now that the Russians are using cargo drone ground vehicles for autonomous resupply of ground forces; but no imagery has shown up yet.

[Dion]

Man, those are some fine videos. Technology of advanced weapon systems is advancing at such a fast pace, if the game isn't updated past 2025, all those updates of the past will become obsolete real fast.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Dion

Man, those are some fine videos. Technology of advanced weapon systems is advancing at such a fast pace, if the game isn't updated past 2025, all those updates of the past will become obsolete real fast.

That may be a LOT more difficult then you think.
That would require considerable amounts of new and re-coding. And there's one, ONE, coder, Andy. Even if he wanted to do all the needed coding it would take years, literally, for one man to do all that's needed.

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechne...icle/hywpcxufp

"Magen Or," the Israeli rocket interception system, which utilizes a high-powered laser, will soon undergo a series of tests under the conditions of actual combat in the southern part of the country.

"Magen Or" (Iron Beam) represents the next step in Israel's self-defense capabilities: a laser system capable of neutralizing rockets, missiles, or drones from a distance, at zero cost when compared to the Iron Dome.

Following the conflict with the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli Ministry of Defense and Rafael recently agreed to deploy the system near the border with Gaza and challenge it with rocket barrages launched by Hamas terrorists. The operational testing of Magen Or - which is still in the development process - will not compromise the operational effectiveness of Iron Dome, which will be activated whenever launches are detected from the Gaza Strip. According to a security source, this is being considered as a live experiment.

The Magen Or system is scheduled to begin initial operations in 2024-2025, following a significant breakthrough in laser weapon technology in recent years. This system is designed to intercept various threats, including rockets, mortar bombs, drones, and more, all at a cost equivalent to the electricity required to operate it. Developers at Rafael categorize Magen Or as a complementary defensive weapon to Iron Dome, also developed and manufactured by the same companies. These two systems are designed to operate in coordination. Therefore, if the command and control system directs a powerful laser beam towards a target, an Iron Dome interceptor will not be deployed, resulting in savings of approximately $50,000 per Iron Dome interceptor.

[troopie]

With the Game, Don and Andy will decide. And I will live with it. Goeie nag.

troopie